Vitriol on NASCAR

So its settled then?

it will never be settled.

If I can't walk around the pits and look under hoods and appreciate the race cars, I don't really like it.

I'll go to a NASCAR race if I have free tickets, but really it is just kind of background for drinking beer and people watching.

I can remember when the (spear carriers) in Nascar would run junk yard engines.
Richard Petty's car on an open trailer towed by a box truck. Then evrybody ran a dirt track one nite and the next on a paved track. Now even the short track modifieds are carried in a closed trailer.

In reply to Chris_V:

I do think the typical fan does think thee is a relationship. I live down the road from Pocono. I interact with locals ad visitors who are attendees due to the fact my family owns a local business which is frequented by these fans. Yes, I do believe that they think there is a connection.

I also believe that many, if not most, of these fans do not know the difference between a carburetor and fuel injection and would be turned off if the cars did not have a loud V8 and bumping, rubbing and crashes were reduced.

Here are some questions I have been asked by circle track fans when discussing my SCCA activities.

1) You can race a Neon?

2) Why do they let you keep the glass in your race car?

3) The engine is stock?

4) You can race on street tires.

5) Why is their no spoiler on your car?

6) Koni?

7) You race through cones?

8) Hill climb, like a motorcycle on dirt?

9) You race in a parking lot?

I do think the average NASCAR fan is ignorant of many facts known to car enthusiasts. However NASCAR is not targeting car enthusiasts (they are automatically attracted to nearly any kind of racing). They are trying to attract the mainstream American. The do a damn fine job at that.

As I have said before: I like NASCAR for what it is. What is it? High speed entertainment with talented drivers, talented teams who have to be very creative to gain an advantage within a very tight rule structure.

I am a historian by education. One of my favorite areas is American automotive history. One can not be a fan of American automotive history and not like NASCAR. However, I like NASCAR for what it was more than what it is. That is just my opinion.

Heck, NASCAR teams were at one time at the forefront of race car development. Remember Holman and Moody's involvement with the GT40? Also, at one time NASCAR was used as a test bed for the Detroit automakers. I would rather go back to those days. Mazda does it with road racing. NASCAR could be used for the same purposed if allowed. I think the changes for 2011 are a step in the right direction and I am looking forward to it.

I have no problem with circle track. Only those who believe that is the epitome if motorsport. In my opinion Trans-Am was the best formula, but that is my prejudice talking. Run cars built to Trans-Am rules, but with engines based on current models and I would be happy, but most NASCAR fans would not.

Heck, I am and F1 fan, but I think driver aids should be outlawed. Most F1 fans, especially in Europe, could not car one bit about that. European F1 fans are in the same boat as U.S. NASCAR fans. They cheer for their favorite driver and favorite marque. I only cheer for my favorite marque, driver be damned. ;)

there are plenty of NASCAR teams that are involved in other kinds of racing series and do quite well- Penske, Ganassi, Roush, Robbie Gordon Motorsports, Red Bull Racing. actually, Red Bull was into other motorsports and got into NASCAR. plenty of NASCAR racers take every opportunity they can to race in other series. many of them have tried their hands in endurance races that vary from the 24 hours of Daytona on down to Chumpcar at VIR. Dale Earnhardt Sr wanted to race an F1 car- that would have been entertaining.

Moparman wrote: I do think the average NASCAR fan is ignorant of many facts known to car enthusiasts. However NASCAR is not targeting car enthusiasts (they are automatically attracted to nearly any kind of racing). They are trying to attract the mainstream American. The do a damn fine job at that.

I don't see why attracting regular people is wrong. The more people come through the gate the more money everyone has to play with. We have a 1/4 mile dirt track in the middle of nowhere up here that pays $2000 to win every friday. That brings in big fields and good racing every week. Most of the people that come to watch never raced, many probably don't even change their own oil, but they come, have a good time and spend a few bucks. As time goes by many pick up on how the cars work and some try their hand at one of the entry level classes like mini stocks or enduros. If these same people showed up at an SCCA event they would treated like lepers. It doesn't apply to everyone but I have met more amature road racers with superiority complexes than any other type of racer. I never understood why it was good to keep people away or only invite people that are knowledgeable car people. It doesn't take much more effort to be friendly and answer a few questions. It is one of the reasons my wife will only go to Lime Rock for the Busch race and the vintage car race.

In reply to novaderrik:

I agree. One of my favorite Daytona 24 was Sr.'s last when he was in a Vette.

In reply to Wally:

There is nothing wrong with it. NASCAR found a great niche. However, with that niche and rules which pander to that niche is going to come criticism. As I have said numerous times, I am a fan and do watch NASCAR races, but I take them for what they are, 190 mph reality shows. I wouldn't go as far as to call it wrestling on wheels, it is not racing in the purest sense when gimmicks are used to keep racing artificially close. However, from the entertainment and marketing aspect it is brilliant.

Question for the board: How would NASCAR's ratings and attendance be affected if races were permitted to run there course and aggressive driving was curtailed to minimize bumping, rubbing and crashes?

My guess is that ratings and attendance would plummet. Therein lies criticism from fans and participants from other forms of racing. Bumping, rubbing, brawling, etc. is considered low class by many. Maybe it is upbringing. I was raised in a middle class Irish Catholic family. I was raised to view such behavior and the entire red neck lifestyle as something to be avoided. It is not that fighting was viewed with disdain. I'm Irish, my father began teaching me to box when I was five (he was an amateur boxer and boxed in the Army). I was also taught that to start a fight and to act in a belligerent manner was wrong unless provoked.

Call it prejudice, but I do view certain behavior inconsistent with what I belief to be right. Still I like NASCAR. I would prefer they either run production based cars or run race cars which do not purport to be Impalas or Chargers

P.S. What makes NASCAR more legitimate than the number of teams involved in other motorsports, but how many new NASCAR drivers have come over from other series.

Lest someone doubts my affinity for racing history and American cars, here are pictures I took this evening of my garage:

Garage Pics

Reasons I stopped watching F1, and have never watched NASCAR: the cars are just boring. Yes an F1 car (well, in 2003 anyway) could make 950 hp from 3.0 liters at 20,000 rpm, and a NASCAR can take a prolonged turn at 200 mph, but the rules strangle them. They are too much alike, and none share anything (other than they're driven by people) with cars I see every day. Throw a Cavalier, my Saturn, a Corolla, and a Subaru Outback wagon around a circle track as fast as they can go, now that E36 M3 I will watch!

In reply to Twin_Cam:

Got my vote

Moparman wrote: In reply to Wally: There is nothing wrong with it. NASCAR found a great niche. However, with that niche and rules which pander to that niche is going to come criticism. As I have said numerous times, I am a fan and do watch NASCAR races, but I take them for what they are, 190 mph reality shows. I wouldn't go as far as to call it wrestling on wheels, it is not racing in the purest sense when gimmicks are used to keep racing artificially close. However, from the entertainment and marketing aspect it is brilliant. Question for the board: How would NASCAR's ratings and attendance be affected if races were permitted to run there course and aggressive driving was curtailed to minimize bumping, rubbing and crashes? My guess is that ratings and attendance would plummet. Therein lies criticism from fans and participants from other forms of racing. Bumping, rubbing, brawling, etc. is considered low class by many. Maybe it is upbringing. I was raised in a middle class Irish Catholic family. I was raised to view such behavior and the entire red neck lifestyle as something to be avoided. It is not that fighting was viewed with disdain. I'm Irish, my father began teaching me to box when I was five (he was an amateur boxer and boxed in the Army). I was also taught that to start a fight and to act in a belligerent manner was wrong unless provoked. Call it prejudice, but I do view certain behavior inconsistent with what I belief to be right. Still I like NASCAR. I would prefer they either run production based cars or run race cars which do not purport to be Impalas or Chargers P.S. What makes NASCAR more legitimate than the number of teams involved in other motorsports, but how many new NASCAR drivers have come over from other series.

Would sprint cars and off road racing count ? Don't forget the Australian V8 cars or what ever they are called.

Twin_Cam wrote: Throw a Cavalier, my Saturn, a Corolla, and a Subaru Outback wagon around a circle track as fast as they can go, now that E36 M3 I will watch!

And based on your location, you have plenty of opportunities to do just that if you look around.

Moparman, you also have the opportunities.

novaderrik wrote: it will never be settled.

And will never be because most of the fans have no clue as to what is involved in the different types of racing.

I like all kinds of racing but then I have a bit of a background to go by.

In summer of 1965 on Friday and Saturday nights I drove a "Flathead Jalopy" on the short dirt tracks in SW PA. On Saturdays and Sundays I Auto-X the red car in the Pittsburgh area or if there was no Auto-X scheduled I took the blue car to the dragstrip at Salem, OH

BTW: the folks here would appreciate the "Flathead Jalopy". It had a Ford pickup truck frame, Chrysler rear end, Hudson flathead 6 cyl motor, 37 Chevy Coupe body, and enough crash bars around it to look like a bumper car.

In reply to iceracer:

I like sprint cars, off-road (non-stadium) ad Australian Touring cars. I like the NASCAR truck series too.

In reply to Hal:

I know and take advantage of as many as I can.

You know, If nascar inspires kids to start going to circle tracks or kart tracks or poking around in engine bays... Then awesome...

Its pretty easy to make fun of it, but there is some good here.

In reply to ignorant:

I agree, but if they got into autocross they would learn more skills useful in the real world.

for many of us that recall nascar's past, it is like that independent struggling college band you followed for years and loved but now that they are popular and successful we hate them because they "sold out."

kabel wrote: for many of us that recall nascar's past, it is like that independent struggling college band you followed for years and loved but now that they are popular and successful we hate them because they "sold out."

Very good comparison.

Moparman wrote: In reply to ignorant: I agree, but if they got into autocross they would learn more skills useful in the real world.

And what skills would that be? Dodging shopping carts in the mall parking lot?

kabel wrote: for many of us that recall nascar's past, it is like that independent struggling college band you followed for years and loved but now that they are popular and successful we hate them because they "sold out."

so NASCAR is like Metallica then- a lot of people thought they were awesome until they decided not to record Master of Puppets over and over again. that was when they sold out.. or something like that..

Osterkraut wrote:

Moparman wrote: In reply to ignorant: I agree, but if they got into autocross they would learn more skills useful in the real world.

And what skills would that be? Dodging shopping carts in the mall parking lot?

How about car control under a variety of conditions? Every year here in NE PA there are dozens of stories about people, many of them teens, who die because they cannot control a car in a hazardous situation. Autocross is one of the best activities for driver training. My now 21-year-old daughter has used her skills learned while autocrossing to recover her car in slippery conditions and avoid unexpected hazards such as falling objects and stupid drivers. I have used what I have learned countless times as well. After one icy bridge near Ithaca NY in December 2009, my family will verify what I am saying.

I can't believe your comment. I guess learning how to turn left is better. Maybe drifting is the way to go?

I will not let my kids drive on the street by themselves until the complete one full season of autocrossing. I know the publisher of this magazine holds a similar view.

What is your experience?

A little help here folks.

Moparman wrote:

Osterkraut wrote:

Moparman wrote: In reply to ignorant: I agree, but if they got into autocross they would learn more skills useful in the real world.

And what skills would that be? Dodging shopping carts in the mall parking lot?

How about car control under a variety of conditions? Every year here in NE PA there are dozens of stories about people, many of them teens, who die because they cannot control a car in a hazardous situation. Autocross is one of the best activities for driver training. My now 21-year-old daughter has used her skills learned while autocrossing to recover her car in slippery conditions and avoid unexpected hazards such as falling objects and stupid drivers. I have used what I have learned countless times as well. After one icy bridge near Ithaca NY in December 2009, my family will verify what I am saying. I can't believe your comment. I guess learning how to turn left is better. Maybe drifting is the way to go? I will not let my kids drive on the street by themselves until the complete one full season of autocrossing. I know the publisher of this magazine holds a similar view. What is your experience? A little help here folks.

my own personal theory of why kids these days are such crappy drivers is because they don't ever get to really watch how mom and dad drive the car- they are strapped into the back seats with portable video games and dvd movies to isolate them from the driving experience. i got to ride right up front and watch how dad worked the pedals and steering wheel. and even when i was in the back seat, i had nothing better to look at then whatever was going by outside the car.

these days, all kids know about driving is what they experience when playing video games where they can pause, restart, or quit a race whenever they want. and if they crash, it's no big deal. they just start the race over. that's the mentality they bring with them when they are old enough to drive.

before i was old enough to reach the pedals, i got to sit on my dad's lap and steer the car when we'd go pretty much anywhere starting at about the age of 5 or so. cops would just wave at us when we'd drive by. today, that's probably 10 different kinds of child abuse and/or endangerment.

before i got my license, i learned some basic car control from my grandpa in the Buick Nailhead powered '30 Model A 5 window street rod that my dad built. it was fun throwing that thing around the hay field when i was 13 years old.

after i got my license,i learned car control on windy dirt roads in the middle of the nigh in either my mom's 4 cylinder/4 speed 86 Mustang or my 360 powered 78 Cordoba that really, really needed new tie rods. .

as a small child, i spent my summers watching the races at the local 3/8 mile dirt track from the best seat in the house- i got to sit on top of the fire truck in the in field since my dad was on the fire department. i can't remember the truck ever actually being needed to put out afire, but it sure made for an awesome seat from right next to the flag stand on the infield. watching the cars, i was always amazed at how well they were able to control the cars with the front wheel pointed to the right as they were going around the left turns lap after lap and heat after heat. the late 70's and early 80's was a great time to be a small child..

been driving almost 20 years with no accidents and only one trip into a ditch- which wasn't really my fault because the drunk idiot in the passenger seat essentially fell into the steering wheel when he was doing something with the radio. but it was his car and his 1/4 panel that got caved in by that road sign, so it's cool..