volt

i've been seeing backlash against the volt recently in the blogoshpere and I'm inclined to agree. It's a $40k chevy that does everything a $20k honda or toyota will do. How are they going to sell it?

I was wondering the same thing but there are 2 glaring differences:

If you drive less than 40 miles per day it will do alot more than a honda or a toyota...

If you plug it in you won't be generating as much emissions as either a honda or a toyota...

sorry I didn't clarify. By $20k honda and toyota I meant Hybrid/ PHEV hybrid toyota or honda. Honda has one coming in the $18k range.. Toyota as well.

The volt has no key differentiator except it is made by the general. That's it.

It does have a key differentiator. It is an electric car. If you drive less than 40 miles between charges (my work commute) then you use 0 gallons of gasoline. The little 1.0 liter engine only turns a generator, from what I understand. Therefore, propulsion comes solely from the motor.

Also, the batteries are high-tech lithium-ion packs - not the smallish NiMH batteries in the Prius.

how is that a key differentiator from a PHEV?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid

maybe I'm not getting it, but aren't their kits already available that will do what the volt does on an existing prius for less?

volt: electric vehicle with flex fuel i.c. engine to charge the batteries

plug-in hybrid: i.c. engine vehicle with electric motor assist

for double the price and half the build quality you're going to have pull something crazy to get people to purchase it.. maybe drugs?

ignorant wrote: how is that a key differentiator from a PHEV?

If I buy the car and drive it to work every day and charge while I'm at work; it is possible that I never buy a drop of gasoline for that car. Ever.

confuZion3 wrote:

ignorant wrote: how is that a key differentiator from a PHEV?

If I buy the car and drive it to work every day and charge while I'm at work; it is possible that I never buy a drop of gasoline for that car. Ever.

I believe the same could be done with a conversion of existing vehicles.

Prius for $20k + $5k for a conversion kit = $15k you saved.

edit Don't get me wrong, I want the vehicle to work. I think that we need to move forward with more products such as this. I just believe that GM is pricing itself out of the market. In a world were car loans are becoming harder to get, how are they going to get people to justify purchasing their vehicle.

ignorant wrote: for double the price and half the build quality you're going to have pull something crazy to get people to purchase it.. maybe drugs?

One summer, a few years ago, a dealer in central PA had an interesting offer going. Buy a Chevy Suburban - get a free Kia Rio.

You never can know with GM . . .

ignorant wrote:

confuZion3 wrote:

ignorant wrote: how is that a key differentiator from a PHEV?

If I buy the car and drive it to work every day and charge while I'm at work; it is possible that I never buy a drop of gasoline for that car. Ever.

I believe the same could be done with a conversion of existing vehicles. Prius for $20k + $5k for a conversion kit = $15k you saved.

Sure thing. But the Volt will have a warranty.

I see your point. The Volt will be expensive. I think it will be difficult for GM to make people think that "electric" is THAT much better than hybrid. Is the added value really worth $20,000?

Then again, they might be able to price it much lower when the time comes. I think the people who will buy the Volt will be all the same people who bought Priui and Insights when they came out and were super-expensive. Celebrities, techies, and "innovators" (is that the correct marketing term?).

yes.. they do have the early adopters in the bag, but I think the price is a killer.

Me thinks you miss the point. Do you know who bought the first Priusus (how do you make that plural?) Rich hollywood types who wanted to show everyone how environmentally freindly they are. And some politicians. Same went for the GM EV-1. And the Smart Car. These are toys for the rich to offset their Hummers and Escalades. They don't care about space or range because they are not actually their daily driver. Only a small percentage of "real" people buy these cars to reduce their fuel costs, and they are tree-huggers who value the environment enough to pay extra. (bless them) for the rest of us, it is going to be a tough sell.

Remember the iPhone when it came out? Early adopters grabbed them up so fast it was stupid. Then, shortly after, a better version came out and was half the price. I wonder if this is what GM is trying to do.

It could run on air and have gummy bears come out the tail pipe and people will always hate it because they don't like GM.

It's not a cheap technology, but the trickle down into other products will have a profound impact on GM's line up.

When the prius came out it never got near the mileage they said it would and didn't they have / had a huge lawsuit?

The technology is far different then a dual mode hybrid. The chassis of the volt is designed to accept different 1.0Ltr engines ranging from Diesel to hydrogen.

U can't expect them to come out with cutting edge technology, then sell it for $12,900.. doesn't work like that.

As for the PRius/ Honda/ other hybrids.. my crap ass 2000 TDI golf kicks all of their asses mileage wise (57mpg best so far) ... we would all like to think that we want such a car to save the environment , but at the end of the day we want it to save money.

confuZion3 wrote: Remember the iPhone when it came out? Early adopters grabbed them up so fast it was stupid. Then, shortly after, a better version came out and was half the price. I wonder if this is what GM is trying to do.

bingo

I will have a plug in electric car. I will wait for the Second generation.

I think there are a few things to point out:

1) gas prices are going to continue to rise as demand in developing nations grow

2) oil production will rise even into difficult to mine areas but the costs of getting at it will be higher, i.e. demand has to push prices to much higer levels $8/gal was a number I read in a report on what it would take for the US to mine the oil deposits in Shale layers in ND, Montana, and into Canada...

3) there's an even more interesting report that the Saudi oil fields have peaked (i.e. easy oil is starting to decline, which will exaserbate fuel prices until hard to mine areas are viable, see point #2).

4) Diesels will never save the US as much as I wish they would because of one simple fact, something like 80% of the oil we refine into diesel in the US goes to European markets, if we were to suddenly increase our usage to 50% of what we refine we would incurr a price war with Europe and drive diesel prices up to the point where 57 mpg VW TDIs are no longer cost saving, we've already started to see this as diesel prices have risen faster (as a %) than gas prices.

5) a PHEV like the Prius or new Honda vehicles are parallel hybrids instead of series hybrids, i.e. the engine still turns thermal energy into mechaical by directly driving the wheels instead of the GM Volts thermal - electrical - mechanical. The conversion process if the engine is run at peak efficiency rpm can return big overall efficiency bumps over the RANGE of RPMS driven in a normal vehicle drive cycle. Yes a Volt vs Prius vs diesel driven 400 miles continuously will be a wash, but no large percentage of Americans drive 400 miles continuously very often, a few times per year if that, and then if the Volt offers equivalent performance to a Prius or diesel great. The real gain is over the short distances most people drive to and from work each day, I have a 15 mile commute one way, if I charge off the grid at night my lower overall operating cost will be lower than a parallel hybrid.

6) I think everyone makes a good point about cost and early adopters, Li-ion in a car is new, and as such carries higher costs, period, and there is some buzz about GM getting gov't subsidy for the battery technology which would reduce prices from the $40k GM would have to sell at on their own to profit vs $30k or so they would like to sell it at.

7) I like the i-Phone analogy, I think that's exactly what's going to happen, look GM has all but clamped down on A123 Systems providing tech to other companies (minus GE) at this point and A123 is no longer taking private venture capital, this would indicate to me GM wants this tech all to itself, and expects to pay off the R&D costs it's invested in A123 fast, most likely to bring Gen-II Li-ion cost down to the point they can place series hybrids along side pure ICE and parallel hybrids at the same cost within 5 years which is the typical dev time cycle for a new car. Afterall if the Volt is coming out next year, most likely it's replacement is already being worked on as we speak.

8) The tech to do this has existed for awhile but not at an efficiency/cost basis that made it viable, Li-ion tech wasn't up to the challenge and only recent breakthroughs in the last few years have brought power densities up to the point we could even consider this. Small high efficiency ICE generators have been around and the controllers to handle regenerative braking and whatnot has existed for awhile, it's really getting the power densities up on the batteries to the point where the battery pack weighs a manageable amount.

I'm not convinced the Volt is the best thing since sliced bread, but I know for a fact a parallel marries the worst of both worlds so I'm excited to see if the Volt can break away and showcase this new tech without scaring people away as pure electric vehicles have.

I've always considered the hybrids like the Prius to be nothing more than gimics and R&D funding on the way to a plug in or fuel cell vehicle. It would cost too much to just come out with a fuel cell/electric motor or battery plug in electric motor vehicle. Besides the technology to build it, the infrastructure does not exist. So, the hybrids are a stepping stone as the manufacturers develop the electric motors, controllers, etc. and the rest of us pay for the new infrastructure (upgraded power grid, increased electrical generation). The batteries will be a thing of the past once the big capacitors are in production. It should be relatively easy to replace a poorly thermodynamic efficient battery with a capacitor and voltage control circuit. "Buy your retro-fit kit today!"

GM is going to have to sell the Volt for a lot less than 40 large. If that's the best they can do, that isn't going to save the company.

these are exactly the questions I need to find answers to. In my Creative Strategies class, we are tasked with developing an advertising campaign for the Chevy Volt. I will make sure you guys see it when we are done.

these are exactly the questions I need to find answers to. In my Creative Strategies class, we are tasked with developing an advertising campaign for the Chevy Volt. I will make sure you guys see it when we are done.

Yeah, $40k is way too high for the end of the market it appears to be aimed at. I did a quick check: Prii MSRP is almost $24K for the high end version. http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2008-toyota-prius.htm No, the Prius is not a pure electric but I don't think the great masses will be overly concerned about that.

Now, if you compare the $40K Volt to the $100K Tesla roadster or their upcoming $60K sedan then the Volt looks much better, price wise. Thing is, since the Volt is not a pure electric either so it doesn't really compare to those cars which puts us back to square 1. Also, Tesla claims 240 miles range but Volt's pure electric range is 40? 'Sup wit dat?

I want to see it succeed as well; I just hope GM's legendary bureacracy doesn't morph it all out of shape.

The Volt doesn't carry 1,000 pounds of batteries and probably has a functional trunk. This is also likely the reason that the Volt costs 60% less than the Roadster.

as an aside, why do the "non-car guys" think the smart car is a hybrid?

4) Diesels will never save the US as much as I wish they would because of one simple fact, something like 80% of the oil we refine into diesel in the US goes to European markets, if we were to suddenly increase our usage to 50% of what we refine we would incurr a price war with Europe and drive diesel prices up to the point where 57 mpg VW TDIs are no longer cost saving, we've already started to see this as diesel prices have risen faster (as a %) than gas prices.

I pay nearly the same price for diesel as I do for gas.

My 2002 civic would go 600kms per $50 tank my Tdi Golf will go 1200Kms on a tank

So how am I not saving money again?

maroon92 wrote: these are exactly the questions I need to find answers to. In my Creative Strategies class, we are tasked with developing an advertising campaign for the Chevy Volt. I will make sure you guys see it when we are done.

just having got my mba.. I got some ideas that will make profs happy.. If I get a chance I will type tonight.

also.. I think the pictures lie slightly, when I first saw the car I thought it was malibu sized and thought it was good, but now I have found out it is colbalt sized. A $40k compact car, I guess it can compete with the 1 series.