What about adding a top speed class to the challenge

This isn't an SCTA  Book (honestly still don't know why you can't get a digital copy) but its for the Australian version. Different than SCTA, But based around the basics of it. So flip through and it'll give you an idea of how E36 M3 works class wise. Safety wise. Etc. Its free. And a good thing to get a free basic idea of how things work. Obviously lots of differences between them, but... as a primer it will give you a basic idea.

Seriously though, buy the SCTA rule book. It's worth every penny if you are even remotely thinking about running.  Do not build anything for the US off the DLRA rules. They're different. And you WILL NOT PASS tech. 

http://Www.dlra.org.au/rulebook.htm

alfadriver said:

And as much as I respect the engine builders that have been to the challenge, I don't see anyone getting close to a record in any class for $2000.  

I set records in two separate cars and neither had more than challenge money in them. 
 

Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

I think $2000 cars going 150mph plus would be a bad idea.

 

I mean.....I've had the Rampage up over 110mph with about 2k left before redline. I don't think I want to drive much faster than that with that car, I love it and all but it's not exactly perfect in any category.

Watch the movie, worlds fastest Indian. 
  He makes our $2000 challenge seem like Billionaires play toys  in comparison. 
    The Nelsons go 150mph in a 1/4 mile on that budget. And he's set some top speed records in his 1954 Studebaker. 
   I understand people reluctant to go that fast on public roads. I agree with that logic. But a race track?  That is a whole other kettle of fish. I'm more at risk in my bed. Than a race track.  

In reply to GaryC83 :

My copy of the SCTA rule book is probably 20 years out of date. But what I read there was in line with other clubs rules for racing.   
   Now maybe the crew of Top Gear are the exception but I recall them showing up on the salt flats with 3 new cars ( Corvette, Cadillac,  Dodge  and I didn't see any 12 point cages or unobtainium stuff. 

Mr. Peabody said:

alfadriver said:

And as much as I respect the engine builders that have been to the challenge, I don't see anyone getting close to a record in any class for $2000.  

I set records in two separate cars and neither had more than challenge money in them. 
 

Where they challenge cars or cars built to be less than $20xx?  Pretty  much all challenge cars are over 1.5L, which puts all of them in 2.0l or bigger classes.  With the Alfa Spider in the posted article, it broke a modified sport record of about 160mph, but that was a 2..0l TS Alfa motor.  We also ran an Alfetta in a Coupe class- which was reasonably close to a challenge car- but it really didn't come close to a record.

A decade ago, the slowest records were in the pick up classes.  I wondered about making a long body Ranger into a LSR truck.  

frenchyd said:

In reply to GaryC83 :

My copy of the SCTA rule book is probably 20 years out of date. But what I read there was in line with other clubs rules for racing.   
   Now maybe the crew of Top Gear are the exception but I recall them showing up on the salt flats with 3 new cars ( Corvette, Cadillac,  Dodge  and I didn't see any 12 point cages or unobtainium stuff. 

There are a number of groups that run on the Salt Flats, and they could have found one that was for a stock car without modifications.  As posted before SCTA is the biggest group, and the one that has the largest turnout.  

On two trips to the Speed Week, people died in accidents, and on a third, one almost died (died in the same car later in the year- doing +400mph).  And our car spun at 190mph when the salt was not ideal.

If you want to build on the cheap, feel free.  This is a whole lot more dangerous than most other motorsports events.

IMHO, if you are really serious, find a team near you and help them until you fully understand what it takes to do it.  Or at least go to Speed Week, and attach yourself to a team as a helper for the same thing.

One was a challenge car, the other was a dedicated LSR car, but you did say any class. There are a lot of interesting options  when you start to look at the record books. 

A few years after I set the first record a very well known journalist built the same car. I know because I helped him with it, and it ran a few MPH over what I did, though in a different class. I know for certain he spent at least 4-5 times what I did. You can spend the money if you want  

I set my sights on some slow records and built a 125 4 stroke bike, but just as I completed it ECTA moved from NC to OH.  Though it's closer I was never able to make it to a single meet and sold it.  I think when I retire I'll have time to go after some more records

alfadriver said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to GaryC83 :

My copy of the SCTA rule book is probably 20 years out of date. But what I read there was in line with other clubs rules for racing.   
   Now maybe the crew of Top Gear are the exception but I recall them showing up on the salt flats with 3 new cars ( Corvette, Cadillac,  Dodge  and I didn't see any 12 point cages or unobtainium stuff. 

There are a number of groups that run on the Salt Flats, and they could have found one that was for a stock car without modifications.  As posted before SCTA is the biggest group, and the one that has the largest turnout.  

On two trips to the Speed Week, people died in accidents, and on a third, one almost died (died in the same car later in the year- doing +400mph).  And our car spun at 190mph when the salt was not ideal.

If you want to build on the cheap, feel free.  This is a whole lot more dangerous than most other motorsports events.

IMHO, if you are really serious, find a team near you and help them until you fully understand what it takes to do it.  Or at least go to Speed Week, and attach yourself to a team as a helper for the same thing.

I should think the major risk to life is the heat on the salt flats.  Yes,  I've been to the flat several times. Yes I did see some things I thought were sketchy. Typically with higher speed cars. Seating positions that  would be extremely difficult to extract yourself from if the car was upside down,  edges that  could  be dangerous  if the body was damaged.  Always as a spectator. In none of those did I see anything worse than spin outs. However I accept there is an element of risk.  People have died on the salt flats 
   Heck,  I've played golf 2 times in my life.  In both times people in our group Died, one from a heat stroke ( in San Diego minutes away from medical people ?!!) and another in Subic Bay from a snake bite.  
 So yes everything has an element of risk. 
  
  

Mr. Peabody said:

One was a challenge car, the other was a dedicated LSR car, but you did say any class. There are a lot of interesting options  when you start look at the record books. 

A few years after I set the first record a very well known journalist built the same car. I know because I helped him with it, and it ran a few MPH over what I did, though in a different class. I know for certain he spent at least 4-5 times what I did. 

I set my sights on some slow records and built a 125 4 stroke bike, but just as I completed it ECTA moved from NC to OH.  Though it's closer I was never able to make it to a single meet and sold it.  I think when I retire I'll have time to go after some more records

Please don't wait until you are retired.  
 While I'm not yet retired, I find working at age 73 harder and harder to do.  Things take me so much longer to do.  It started in my early 60's. I could no longer work 18 hours days with an occasional around the clock thrown in.  By my late 60's rest became a  steady part of work. Getting up and down got harder and harder.  I'm now at the stage where I'm sitting down  as much as I work.  Trust me getting old isn't for the weak and frail. Things I'd get done in 15 minutes in my 50's now take me hours. 

The good new is your hobbies will be a great stimulation.  It's why I'm still working. I need the money to pay for  my hobby.  There is enough income to retire on if all I want is to  sit in a rocking chair watching TV. 

GaryC83 said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to GaryC83 :

 This isn't about setting records.  This is about racing with a $20XX budget. 
   If you show up with a big block something you will be so far off the record but you still might win.  
    On the other hand if you show up with 1000cc something you might be close to a record but lose. ( or win). 

I know exactly what you guys are trying to do. Like I've said I have followed the challenge for years (2003ish?) And eventually would love to build one for it, as am exhibition piece as I have a very unfair advantage, being a pro-fabricator at a very well known shop. 

Like I have also said you would be better off looking yo standing mile vs the salt. For a numerous amount of reasons. Being easier to find classes where you wouldn't have to change a whole hell of a lot as the 130 and 150mph rules are a LOT more lax as far as things required compared to the SCTA. The chassis setup would also be a LOT easier back and forth compared to the salt and most importantly it's a LOT easier on the cars, access for everybody, costs involved, etc. 

I'm speaking as somebody whom has done it from 150mph on up through working on the current world's fastest piston powered setup with a 481mph exit and 470 average.  This is one area where I have more experience than the average guy. By far and away. 

Again. If any one has questions I'm happy to answer them. 

 

 

So not to drag this entirely off topic, but what kind of tires do you run for those pushing 500mph?

I remember when the Bugatti broke 300 they had trouble finding tires that could handle the speeds, but that was meant as a "road" car. You're doing purpose built stuff so I imagine your catalogs are a bit different.

In reply to RevRico :

500 mph?  You go talk to the tire companies.  Goodyear is common but Hoosier might be interested. 

I don't think the actual "challenge" event needs to change much.  You can bring your challenge car to any event you choose.  You can build your challenge car to be optimized for any event you choose.  Example the LMP360 is not a great challenge car, because it is not optimized for that event.  It caries around the budget and weight of a NASA/SCCA W2W cage so it has a useful life outside of the challenge event.  There is no reason you couldn't do the same with a LSR car, or a Drag week car, or a Nationally competitive Autox car, or a Pikes Peak car.   Your performance at the actual challenge will suffer but the event shouldn't be changed to force everyone else to do the same outside events you want to do.  GRM has already communicated that the event is becoming difficult to justify financially.  Expanding it to new different genres won't make it cheaper to run but the opposite. 

If you want to get a group of challengers together to storm another event I'm sure other organizations would consider allowing $2000 cars to run in their own class together provided they pass tech. 

You can run whatever you want.  I've not found an event that has any form of gatekeeping on vehicle cost provided you meet their safety requirements. Some have "finished appearance" clauses but that's easy enough to get around.   

In reply to nocones 
You are absolutely right. 
    GRM shouldn't put on an event. 
They should simply award points to those who go someplace and return with the slip or whatever shows their attained speed.  
       Perhaps they can reduce their costs further by allow those of us outside reasonable towing distance to 1/4 miles race locally and autocross locally. 
    Then send in photo's of our cars along with a 3 minute speech for the concours.
   
The requirement is we need to enter and display the required decals. 
   ( bonus points for magazine sales? )   

In reply to frenchyd :

Maybe instead of telling someone else what they should be doing, you should just go ahead and do it.  And you can write your own feature article about it.

In reply to RevRico :

Speed Demon Streamliner Breaks Piston-Powered Land Speed Record With 470-MPH Average (thedrive.com)

Scroll down for a couple of tire pictures.

In reply to RevRico :

On the Demon those are Mickey Thompson LSR tires. Developed specifically for LSR activities.  There's a few options out there. Anything over 200mph requires dedicated LSR tires. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to GaryC83 :

My copy of the SCTA rule book is probably 20 years out of date. But what I read there was in line with other clubs rules for racing.   
   Now maybe the crew of Top Gear are the exception but I recall them showing up on the salt flats with 3 new cars ( Corvette, Cadillac,  Dodge  and I didn't see any 12 point cages or unobtainium stuff. 

They are the exception to the rule, because they are berkeleying top gear. Show up like they did and ask to run on the salt, with the SCTA, you'll be turned away. 

You would be able to get away with it at USFRA events in the 130 and 150 club, but they're geared for and setup for that. SCTA isn't really, as has been said many times over and over.  That's about the only racing you can do with an uncaged street car on the salt,  Or a car that won't pass tech for its actual SCTA BNI class... but again, then you are limited to 130 and 150, respectively. 

Its not a free for all out there, by any stretch unlike some of those mile events by smaller bodies....where you can go 200 in an uncaged car. Where people have also died.. that GTR wreck comes to mind instantly 

Texas Mile – The US Mile

In reply to GaryC83 :

We had a customer who ran in some sort of sanctioned event at Bonneville in a street turbo 1.6 Miata. Time slip was just just a hair over 130 from what I recall. It was a "this would be interesting to try" thing, not a dedicated record attempt so there were no LSR-related mods other than an off-the-shelf roll bar. And that's a car that I'd consider to be capable of 145 on pavement, so obviously there's stuff about the salt that's different, like traction on a short course. 

Keith Tanner said:

In reply to GaryC83 :

We had a customer who ran in some sort of sanctioned event at Bonneville in a street turbo 1.6 Miata. Time slip was just just a hair over 130 from what I recall. It was a "this would be interesting to try" thing, not a dedicated record attempt so there were no LSR-related mods other than an off-the-shelf roll bar. And that's a car that I'd consider to be capable of 145 on pavement, so obviously there's stuff about the salt that's different, like traction on a short course. 

Oh it's a totally different environment for sure. Ive seen plenty of guys who swear up and down they should run an "easy" 200 plus fail to qualify at 175mph for the long course... many many times. The traction is a totally different animal, as are the chassis setup demands, driveline stresses, etc.  

Sounds like he probably ran with the USFRA in the 130 or 150mph class, which is welcoming towards street cars - in those classes. Otherwise they too run SCTA-BNI type rules for safety and chassis reg's..  

Again, I'm not really aware of anywhere else you can run with an "run what you brung" type setup, outside of the USFRA in those classes. Everything else gets lumped in with where it fits, which pretty much means build the chassis and safety for the class record. 

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

If there were to be a high speed competition, I'd want it to have a rule that disallowed internal combustion engines. If we're going big, go spicy. 

Im pretty sure most $20XX challenge land speed cars would end up with external combustion engines anyway

alfadriver said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Maybe instead of telling someone else what they should be doing, you should just go ahead and do it.  And you can write your own feature article about it.

It's on my bucket list. 

Keith Tanner said:

so obviously there's stuff about the salt that's different, like traction on a short course. 

All I know about it is what I've read in magazine articles, but one of those said that in addition to reducing traction, salt also increases drag.  So yeah, even after accounting for the altitude you still need more power to go a particular speed than you would on pavement.

In reply to GaryC83 :

Thanks Gary - I'll go ahead and order the rule book and go from there. 

Anybody aware of any good documentaries about LSR on the salt?