What Car? Track Rats

z31maniac wrote: Read the whole thread, and the OP's dislike, but I don't see how the answer for an affordable (to use) track beater isn't a Miata. I was in the same position last fall. I don't particularly like Miata's, they are OK and all, but I went ahead and picked up a clean 1990 to build for track work. Not because I like them, but because it's the best answer to the question.

I disagree there are tons of cars which can easily be used on the track for not a lot of money. Civics, MR2, Fiat X1/9, etc.

DaewooOfDeath wrote: Motorswaps can be relatively painless for the street. Going from a 305 to a 350, or from a D15 to a B18, for example, makes everything better. The comfort penalty on poly bushings is so small as to be trivial. Better brakes, unless you go to track pads, are the same way. Chassis bracing can improve the ride and is neither seen nor heard. A high quality sports seat, provided it's not some HANS device monstrosity, will improve comfort over a lot of econo-box park benches. There's quite a bit you can do without making the car unstreetable. I am insane, but I think tough guy springs at near stock ride height are well worth the comfort trade off. I become adamant on this point every time I drive on a twisty road. My 27 year old spine probably has a lot to do with that, though. The other thing is that, as long as it's not a commuter car, it's kind of nice to have something that's a little crazy, a little anti-social. I don't mind if a street car is a little louder, a little rougher and a little more demanding pulling away from a red light. This probably applies a lot less to Mustangs than Hondas, but you get my drift.

Agreed, I was talking more about the suspension side of things. When I de-modded my Mustang I still had a 351 roller block, Steeda #19 cam, ported GT40 heads, ported GT40 351 lower and ported Explorer upper plus shorty headers etc. It made about 305hp and 350lb/ft of torque all day long on 87 Octane. But the suspension was 90% stock and much the nicer for it.

DaewooOfDeath wrote: I am insane, but I think tough guy springs at near stock ride height are well worth the comfort trade off. I become adamant on this point every time I drive on a twisty road. My 27 year old spine probably has a lot to do with that, though.

Indeed it does. Adrian and I are about the same age, and let's just say I was a lot more tolerant of a rough ride and a loud exhaust when I was your age than I am now that I'm in my 40s. Heck, lately I find myself driving my truck more than my M3 just for the comfort factor, and the M3 is bone stock.

That's why I'm contemplating the cheap track car route myself. My logic being that if I'm not going to drive the thing that much anyhow, I might as well get something cheaper than the M3 and make it a bit more hard-core, though still streetable, while freeing up money for other fun stuff.

Anyhow, I still say E30.

Tom_Spangler wrote: That's why I'm contemplating the cheap track car route myself. My logic being that if I'm not going to drive the thing that much anyhow, I might as well get something cheaper than the M3 and make it a bit more hard-core, though still streetable, while freeing up money for other fun stuff. Anyhow, I still say E30.

At lunch today you were still insisting on carpet, real seats etc. I'd say your only looking for very mildly more hard core than the M3. Back to the springs and shocks upgrade on the suspension side I think

93EXCivic wrote:

z31maniac wrote: Read the whole thread, and the OP's dislike, but I don't see how the answer for an affordable (to use) track beater isn't a Miata. I was in the same position last fall. I don't particularly like Miata's, they are OK and all, but I went ahead and picked up a clean 1990 to build for track work. Not because I like them, but because it's the best answer to the question.

I disagree there are tons of cars which can easily be used on the track for not a lot of money. Civics, MR2, Fiat X1/9, etc.

Civic = wrong wheel drive (I loved my Speed 3, but wouldn't be interested in FWD for track-based car, yes I realize they can be made to handle, etc) MR2 = hard to find, small aftermarket, etc Fiat X1/9 = even more so

I take into account readily available aftermarket, knowledge of chassis/setup and readily available used/salvage parts.

But that's just me.

Tom_Spangler wrote: I can see the logic in buying a car someone else has built, certainly it would save you money. But it seems like most people's idea of a "track car" is more pure than I would want. I'm going to do 2, maybe 3 track days a year. Having a gutted, fully caged, non-streetable car around for that is kind of a waste. Having a car with a full interior and maybe a 4-point bar with some performance mods makes a lot more sense to me, because then I can still drive it on the street. But those don't seem to be for sale all that often, so for me, building is the way to go. YMMV, of course.

I agree with this, if you are looking for a streetable track car you would likely want all carpet in place for noise etc.

z31maniac wrote:

93EXCivic wrote:

z31maniac wrote: Read the whole thread, and the OP's dislike, but I don't see how the answer for an affordable (to use) track beater isn't a Miata. I was in the same position last fall. I don't particularly like Miata's, they are OK and all, but I went ahead and picked up a clean 1990 to build for track work. Not because I like them, but because it's the best answer to the question.

I disagree there are tons of cars which can easily be used on the track for not a lot of money. Civics, MR2, Fiat X1/9, etc.

Civic = wrong wheel drive (I loved my Speed 3, but wouldn't be interested in FWD for track-based car, yes I realize they can be made to handle, etc) MR2 = hard to find, small aftermarket, etc Fiat X1/9 = even more so

I can find or make plenty of things for a Yugo. How hard can an X1/9 or MR2 be?

Then again people keep telling me there is something wrong with my head...

In reply to 93EXCivic: I agree. The aftermarket is overrated.

Well the OP did say lots of aftermarket and replacement parts. Doesn't sound like he wants to fabricate parts when he could be driving.

But I guess if you ignore what he wants, all kinds of options are open.

z31maniac wrote: Well the OP did say lots of aftermarket and replacement parts. Doesn't sound like he wants to fabricate parts

Where is the fun in that?

93EXCivic wrote:

z31maniac wrote: Well the OP did say lots of aftermarket and replacement parts. Doesn't sound like he wants to fabricate parts

Where is the fun in that?

After the last year... i can certainly see the fun in that. I'm so sick of my build i could scream.

That said, i AM building one of the cars that was suggested, but the problems are my fault, not the car's.

In reply to Geekspeed:

Thats what roll bars and roll cahges are for. Miatas can be done fairly cheap and be a track terror in the end, but I am biased to Miatas. They are very fun to drive and are very forgiving. Just putting in my $0.02

My 27 year old spine probably has a lot to do with that, though.

I assume you mean 27 and never had a back injury. My 27 year old spine gets grouchy in certain seats, but it doesnt come up a whole lot. Usually comes up more often when i get out of bed in the morning and when i try to pick stuff up off the floor. And im still working on cars for a living. 27 years down, 60 to go...

Honestly, id be shooting for a FWD here if you are going for cheapest cost of entry. Sure, it doesnt get MUCH cheaper than a miata but i relate with those who would rather not race convertibles, and a miata with a roll bar is still LESS practical than most other cars with a full cage!

If you keep the power relatively low, you can fix a lot of what ails FWD by buying a torque-biasing diff. imo.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: After the last year... i can certainly see the fun in that. I'm so sick of my build i could scream. That said, i AM building one of the cars that was suggested, but the problems are my fault, not the car's.

Get some kids to help you. Makes it all much less predictable, much slower and a lot more fun.

Vigo wrote: I assume you mean 27 and never had a back injury. My 27 year old spine gets grouchy in certain seats, but it doesnt come up a whole lot. Usually comes up more often when i get out of bed in the morning and when i try to pick stuff up off the floor. And im still working on cars for a living. 27 years down, 60 to go...

Yep, back's fine. I tore up my knees instead.

Honestly, id be shooting for a FWD here if you are going for cheapest cost of entry. Sure, it doesnt get MUCH cheaper than a miata but i relate with those who would rather not race convertibles, and a miata with a roll bar is still LESS practical than most other cars with a full cage! If you keep the power relatively low, you can fix a lot of what ails FWD by buying a torque-biasing diff. imo.

This.^

FWD isn't bad, it's just another flavor of ice cream.

You guys all make excellent points. That is what I love about GRMers. We all have different ideas, but no-one gets flamed.

I have to admit, my dislike for Miatas is not logical. I just don't want to have one. Not sure why, I just don't.

As for the dedicated track car thing, I should probably clarify. I DO need the car to be street legal in CA, so doing some crazy stuff is not going to work. I may or may not be building the car into a fully-caged wheel to wheel racer someday in the future. I really want this for track days so I can actually get out there and start learning race-craft. That is another thing, I am generally of the opinion that the lighter, lower-powered car is better for learning.

I have decided that FWD vs. RWD is not something that I am going to worry about. I used to have a Mini Cooper S and it was a blast to drive, despite being FWD.

I still like the VWs and the Hondas. I am also wondering about the MKII MR2s. It seems that performance parts may be easier to get for those than the MKIs. Also, for some insane reason, I have always liked the turbocharged first gen Probe GT.

Oh, and while I LOVE Alfas (especially the GTV6), those are about as common as hen's teeth....

Geekspeed wrote: Oh, and while I LOVE Alfas (especially the GTV6), those are about as common as hen's teeth....

I bet you could find one a lot easier than you think. They arent perfect, but they do seem to hold up to hard use fairly well (lots of oil, decent cooling system, brakes, etc).

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I’m 100% on board with what Tom says about having a car with an interior. A pure race car doesn’t make much sense for many people, especially those with families. Yes I want to build a pure track car, but not until the kids are in collage and I can guiltlessly spend 1-2 weekends per month away from home. I’d say that until your planning on doing more than 6 track events per year, a dedicated non streetable track car doesn’t make sense. Now being GRM about 10,000,000 of you will now jump in and point out that you drive stripped out, caged cars with race seats, harnesses no stereo or A/C every day through a Texas summer, which other than proving how manly you are doesn’t apply to 99.99999999% of sane humans. BTW I’ve BTDT on a stripped out car with no heater, let alone AC for a couple of years myself, but that was when I was half my current age and therefore certifiably insane. One more thing. I and many people I known have gone down the modifying the DD for better performance (autocross, track, drag etc.). Each mod made the car a little better in the owners chosen discipline and a little worse on the street. It was death by 1,000 cuts. One day we all woke up and realized we’d ruined a perfectly good car. With My Mustang I started pulling the supercharger and all the suspension mods off and went 90% of the way back to stock. Guess what, the car was 2-3% slower on track but 100% more usable. I’d say any car you go beyond mild springs, shocks and maybe camber plates if applicable soon starts going down a deep and unpleasant (for the street) rat hole.

Listen to this man. If you go over board you'll end up with a car that is hard to be rid of when you're done. Also, you can run into reliability issues that you can't get help on. I did this with my turbo Miata build. I built the car and had a blast with it. But a few problems with the connection from the turbo to exhaust manifold were reliability issues I never could full solve for track sessions. I understand some guys have a potential solution but it's to the tune of $25 a stud made from iconel. Very frustrating to have a very fast car that is compromised by such a small issue.

If I had it to do all over again I wouldn't modify a car to that extent again. I would get a car that has the power levels I want and then work to fix any other deficiencies such as braking, suspension, etc. But if you're just doing track days, as long as the brakes and suspension are safe, there really is no reason to modify them. You can learn on a car with a softer suspension just as well as learn on a car with a race tight suspension.

So far as car choices.

~ I like E30's as they're great track cars and make nice drivers if you're going the DD part-time track car route.

~ E36's seem nice as well but I can't shake the feeling that their parts will be more expensive and the car will be more complex, therefore less reliable.

~ I've looked into mullet mobiles aka Gbody Camaro's as an option. They're actually quite attractive options for various reasons. They have a 1st gen small block chevy. Power levels are whatever you want to make them. They have an independent front suspension. They also have a fairly competent rear suspension in the form of a live axle with a panhard bar installed. This is an advantage that older muscle cars don't have. Coil springs on the rear suspension also make it easier to tune, raise/lower. They can be had with manual transmissions but if you go with a stock 5 spd you're power levels are limited to just under 300 hp so as to not destroy the tranny. If you go with a 350 swap you'll need a T56 to handle the added power. They also come in right around 3000 lbs. Which in this day and age is not a heavy car by any means.

Xceler8x wrote: Listen to this man. If you go over board you'll end up with a car that is hard to be rid of when you're done. Also, you can run into reliability issues that you can't get help on. I did this with my turbo Miata build. I built the car and had a blast with it. But a few problems with the connection from the turbo to exhaust manifold were reliability issues I never could full solve for track sessions. I understand some guys have a potential solution but it's to the tune of $25 a stud made from iconel. Very frustrating to have a very fast car that is compromised by such a small issue.

I've seen it happen many times.

If I had it to do all over again I wouldn't modify a car to that extent again. I would get a car that has the power levels I want and then work to fix any other deficiencies such as braking, suspension, etc. But if you're just doing track days, as long as the brakes and suspension are safe, there really is no reason to modify them. You can learn on a car with a softer suspension just as well as learn on a car with a race tight suspension.

Very true. As you progress as a driver and want to do some mods to make the car faster and more fun, you can do it. But my first-ever track day was in a stone-stock Protege5, and I had a ball. As long as the mechanical systems are up to snuff, you can track just about anything, as long as it doesn't have a high CG like a truck or something.

So far as car choices. ~ I like E30's as they're great track cars and make nice drivers if you're going the DD part-time track car route. ~ E36's seem nice as well but I can't shake the feeling that their parts will be more expensive and the car will be more complex, therefore less reliable.

Keeping in mind that I haven't owned an E30, but I have researched them pretty extensively, and that I've had an E36 M3 for a couple of years, my perception is that the parts prices are pretty comparable. The E30 has the advantage of being smaller and lighter, so you can use nice cheap 15" tires and they will last longer. But on paper, the E36 has many advantages. It has better brakes, better front suspension, and more power. They also seem to be easier to find, at least around here, than E30s. An early 90s 325i is just some older car. E30s are starting to achieve some level of "classic" status and I've noticed the prices going up accordingly. Honestly, were I doing this, I'd still go with the E30 for two non-logical reasons: I think it looks better, and I've BTDT with the E36.

~ I've looked into mullet mobiles aka Gbody Camaro's as an option. They're actually quite attractive options for various reasons. They have a 1st gen small block chevy. Power levels are whatever you want to make them. They have an independent front suspension. They also have a fairly competent rear suspension in the form of a live axle with a panhard bar installed. This is an advantage that older muscle cars don't have. Coil springs on the rear suspension also make it easier to tune, raise/lower. They can be had with manual transmissions but if you go with a stock 5 spd you're power levels are limited to just under 300 hp so as to not destroy the tranny. If you go with a 350 swap you'll need a T56 to handle the added power. They also come in right around 3000 lbs. Which in this day and age is not a heavy car by any means.

I think you mean F-body. It's a great platform, better than the Mustang in many ways. The rear suspension being the biggest one, but also a lower CG, you can fit more wheel and tire on them, etc. I know a guy with a 84 Camaro with an L98 and a T-5. He has pretty massive rubber on it and has done a lot of suspension tuning, and the thing is just a monster. It only puts like 250hp to the wheels, but the torque is like 330 or something. For autocross use, it's an absolute ball. The other thing is that you can mix and match from the GM parts bin to upgrade things like brakes pretty easily and cheaply.

I'm finding that in the DC area, you can get a pretty nice E36 M3 for what a pretty nice E30 325is goes for. I just bought a (too nice to gut) '95 M3 for $5500. Stock but for a Conforti CAI and chip, good body, great interior. I don't do track days (I've got a 4 and 8 year old that I choose to spend time with), but I'd think this would be nearly ideal. I'm just concentrating on a rolling refresh with bushings, etc. When they are a little more autonomous (and I'm not the coolest motherberkeleyer they know ), I'll get to the track, potentially in this car.... it is soooo cool.
Additionally, I've found the the M models are generally better maintained than the non-M. I would have been totally comfortable with a nice 325is (E30 or E36), but "nice" rarely exists in the same sentence as those, or if it does, they want a premium that often bumps them past the lower end of E36 M3 territory, which is where I bought mine.

Teh E36 M3 wrote: I would have been totally comfortable with a nice 325is (E30 or E36), but "nice" rarely exists in the same sentence as those, or if it does, they want a premium that often bumps them past the lower end of E36 M3 territory, which is where I bought mine.

Which is why I snapped up Sonic's when he sold it a couple of years ago. The condition is incredible for a 200K mile, northeast car. At the same time, it's a double-edge sword. It's so nice I don't want to turn it into a track car... and I really don't have the space or money to keep another 'classic' car around.

I drove it to work today. It is nice, but I think if I was going to keep it, I would restore it back to stock spec (springs, various bushings, driveline mounts) and find correct 195/65-14 tires, despite the lack of performance options in that size. It's a bit harsh as is.

I like the third gen F body thats been mentioned a few times. Here's another slightly off the wall suggestion that's on my lust radar right now. 16V SAAB 900 turbo. Cheap buy in. Very good handling for FWD with double A arm suspension. You can swap on the T5 injection from the later 90's and program it yourself from a lap top, no need for mega squirt. There are LSD's available. Bolt on wheel and brake options too. There's a ton of info over on saabrally.com

Tom_Spangler wrote: I think you mean F-body. It's a great platform, better than the Mustang in many ways. The rear suspension being the biggest one, but also a lower CG, you can fit more wheel and tire on them, etc. I know a guy with a 84 Camaro with an L98 and a T-5. He has pretty massive rubber on it and has done a lot of suspension tuning, and the thing is just a monster. It only puts like 250hp to the wheels, but the torque is like 330 or something. For autocross use, it's an absolute ball. The other thing is that you can mix and match from the GM parts bin to upgrade things like brakes pretty easily and cheaply.

That sounds pretty damn awesome . . . 3rd Gen F-Bodies around these parts are dirt cheap . . .

The big problems with those are the sucky T-5s and the fact that the chassis LOVES to flex.

Travis_K wrote:

Geekspeed wrote: Oh, and while I LOVE Alfas (especially the GTV6), those are about as common as hen's teeth....

I bet you could find one a lot easier than you think. They arent perfect, but they do seem to hold up to hard use fairly well (lots of oil, decent cooling system, brakes, etc).

I agree with this. I can go on Craigslist at any given time and usually find an Alfa within a couple hundred miles.

Have you seen this?

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/200x-classifieds/bmw-track-rat-almost-finished/47990/page1/