What cars are we sleeping on?

Lots of mentions of BMWs and Audis...  how do you all feel that the "hot vee" equipped cars are going to hold up as classics?  These things look like such a monumental pain to work on it seems like most DIY types that typically aren't put off by broken German cars might thing twice about them.

John Welsh said:

stan said:

 ZX2 -especially the S/R- fit in this thread anywhere? 

This came up sort of local recent. Other than the wrong rear bumper, this ZX2 looks good  and could be a "value", asking $2.5k

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1180371856047652/?ref=facebook_story_share

 Looks nice, last year made, relatively low mileage, manual. I need to find some time to go see it (about two hours away...). 

Thanks for the heads-up John!

MrFancypants said:

Lots of mentions of BMWs and Audis...  how do you all feel that the "hot vee" equipped cars are going to hold up as classics?  These things look like such a monumental pain to work on it seems like most DIY types that typically aren't put off by broken German cars might thing twice about them.

No car will run forever without work. If you want a guarantee buy new accept the depreciation and move on.  Used is accepting that work and cost 
Newer cars , all newer cars are harder for the DIY guy to work on. Everything from how do you get the plastic covers off to access issues and complex technology. 
     4-6-8-12 cylinders the fundamentals are the same.  Is 8 really harder than 6 or 4? Or 12? Fuel,  spark,  4 strokes.  
      Watch  a few UTube video's on those issues you don't yet understand.  And go for it. 
once you've done it a few times you'll wonder what you were afraid of.   
  
One final point. The bigger the engine the slower it tends to work.  And the less wear it has.  
 

In reply to stan :

Cool.

There's also this Focus. The plaza the pictures are taken in is about 3 miles from my house. Downside is the seller posts no real price to tell if it's reasonable or not. Also, lots of leaves on the trees in this pics so makes me wonder how old the pics are. 

Two door, manual trans cars are hard to sell. They should all be cheap. The ZX2 probably has a rebuilt title where just a bumper cover cost more than the value of the car. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to rattlecan :

I differ from your definition of classic.  
   There are a whole slew of high dollar cars out there that depreciate like crazy while being an excellent value. Big high dollar cars like MB. BMW, Jaguar, etc. 

  They often can be found cheaper than those economy  cars you mentioned.  The reason for that depreciation may have little to do with their mechanical condition but everything to do with the cost of repairs at the dealership. Bring it in for an oil change and it starts at $375 and is often well over $1000 with little more done than you can do for less than $50 in the driveway.  
    Parts instead of heading to the dealership you should go to Rock Auto. Or places like that.  Join a club and find out who has good used parts. Often sitting untouched because the brainless way is to go to the dealership.  Or you have to go to a few places before you find the deals. 
   A lot of us will get a car cheap because it's scruffy, needs a cleaning, and polish. Plus has a few broken bits.   Sometimes we come across one not running that we can buy for scrap prices and use that for spares. 
   Think outside of the box of cheap.  For a really good deal.  

Not to get too deep into semantics here, but what I meant is this. Once upon a time there were dozens of models of old, cheap amazing cars that it seemed like only car guys knew about. For instance, the Miata. Mocked and disparaged by the general public you could easily pick up a good runner that was cosmetically rough for $1000 and have a great platform. Fox mustangs we're once a dime a dozen. Same with e36 BMWs. Recently it seems that thanks to YouTube car influencers, swooning auto journalists, and the passing of time many of these models are now coveted. Miatas in my area are now $6k. So my question is what cars, if any, are we overlooking from the past 20 years? Honestly if you would have told me in the 90s that The Honda Civic hatchbacks favored by my friends divorced moms would be a future "hot rod" (I don't think the term tuner existed yet) I would have laughed. I don't want a bargain BMW 750 with $20k in deferred maintenance. I want an undiscovered Neon srt4. They must exist. 

But, as a follow up. If you can think of amazing depreciated luxury cars that make great enthusiast cars I'm all ears. For the most part all the advanced electronics and broken bells and whistles tend to scare me off. 

MrFancypants said:

Lots of mentions of BMWs and Audis...  how do you all feel that the "hot vee" equipped cars are going to hold up as classics?  These things look like such a monumental pain to work on it seems like most DIY types that typically aren't put off by broken German cars might thing twice about them.

People DIYed manual transmission Pontiacs for decades, I would much rather do anything on a hot vee engine than anything on the driver's side of a 4 speed Pontiac.  

Starter, exhaust, steering box, Z bar, and control arms all fighting for the same real estate.

rattlecan said:

But, as a follow up. If you can think of amazing depreciated luxury cars that make great enthusiast cars I'm all ears. For the most part all the advanced electronics and broken bells and whistles tend to scare me off. 

In reply to rattlecan :

First gen Infiniti Q45s were my thing having had a 91, 90,& 94. I called it my 4 door Mustang and it pretty much was.

The Gen2 Q45 are a little less hp but still nice.  By 02, the 3rd and last gen are back up on hp.

Go looking for a 2011 Infiniti M56 with its 420 hp 5.6L warmed up Titan Pickup truck motor in a sedan disguised to look like a tarted up Nissan Altima.  Rwd or awd. No one else is shopping for one...but they should be.  Will outrun 370z or G37 for less money. 

The other thing is...

Honestly if you would have told me in the 90s that The Honda Civic hatchbacks favored by my friends divorced moms would be a future "hot rod" (I don't think the term tuner existed yet) I would have laughed.

Civics were very popular for enthusiasts in the 90s and 80s.  Honda even catered to them with things like the Si.  The Lego-ness of Hondas hsd people doing all sorts of engine or carb swaps in the early 80s.

This is a lot of why Civics have always been expensive to buy.  And insure.

In reply to rattlecan :

I'm sorry Rattlecan. I don't know you well enough to understand your nature. Stuff you like, things that excite you.  
   Let me be up front I know nothing about German cars. Or Japanese  ones.  
 I know Jaguar.  
  A simple answer is all 1990 and later ( Ford's Ownership ) Jaguars are pretty darn reliable and basic. Newer than 1997 some have had the engine updated to replace the nylon chain tensioner   with steel  and all post 2001  have that. 
     Gadgets like GPS and radio's etc. may give trouble.  But the basic car is pretty decent. It depreciates like a rock and you are buying a $100,000 car  for a few grand.  
  The history of Jaguar should excite bargain hunters. They start out a premium. Depreciate wildly the first 20 years and then start recovering.

For example a Jaguar XKE that originally sold for $6000 new dropped to a few hundred 20 years later and today can sell for over $200,000. ( most are in the $150,000- $185,000 range ) 

   The XJS originally sold for $22,000 in 1975 and $56,000 in 1996  at one time I bought them for little or nothing. ( yeh, free) today can sell for over $35,000  with a select few over $50,000  Same with big  sedans. 

     Want more examples?  Look up the price of Jaguar XK 120 roadster especially the first ones. Look up the SS 100 or  Or really want to see Huge numbers? D type Jaguar.  We're talking millions.   
  They only made 54, of which 62 remain!!!! 

In reply to frenchyd :

The key is, we all know what those are, why they're cheap, etc.  I think the idea of the thread is to find the cars that aren't quite so obvious and often just get overlooked for no good reason (rather than looked at and decided against). 

I love words like deferred maintenance .  Yep, if you have to take your car to the dealer for work, With depreciation it can easily cost you way more to maintain, than they are worth.  
Now why do you think they do that?  
  Because they don't want to sell cheap used cars. They want you buying those expensive new ones. 
      I love Jaguars.  But Mercedes BMW Audi etc all do this.  Deferred maintenance,   As if all that work is really required.   I buy 50 year old Jaguar's and have torn into their engines scrapping the aluminum and with 100,000 miles there isn't any wear in the cylinders. The bearings look beautiful, timing chains are still fine etc. 

 Why don't you hear about  500,000 mile Jaguars?  Because the ignition will quit and the dealer will tell you it costs $1300 for that Lucas piece Plus labor. Except the module they want $1300 for is available at your local parts store for about $25. It's a Common GM module  in a Lucas plastic  case. 
  Or the fuel injection quits and nobody will tell you what that costs to fix.  Except it's something simple like a sensor or leaking vacuum  hose.  
    Open the hood and it will terrify you. Hoses all over,  stuff crowded in  so tight they have to air condition the fuel lines. ( I kid you not ). 
 But spend a month of your spare time and remove all that junk. Put hoses in neat bundles replace those 50 year old alternators with modern stuff that doesn't look like it came from an ambulance. ( GM alternators are a common swap instead of that big Bus one from Lucas).  Now air flows around, it's reliable stuff  from local auto parts places.  An all aluminum V12 sits there and sparkles. . That 50 year old engine will sit there idle so smooth you can balance a coin on it. 
  Want to know the real truth? About any performance car?  Join the on line clubs.  Sure there are a lot of newbies there who don't know anything. But you'll find sources and knowledgeable people there too. 

rslifkin said:

In reply to frenchyd :

The key is, we all know what those are, why they're cheap, etc.  I think the idea of the thread is to find the cars that aren't quite so obvious and often just get overlooked for no good reason (rather than looked at and decided against). 

Do you really know?  Or have you heard internet stories?  
 I don't know diddly about Mercedes or BMW, Audi. Etc.  But I do know a lot of really good cars are junked just because they are old. Not because they are worn out. 
   Do you think the $1300 Lucas ignition module that really hides a $25 GM pickup Module  is the only thing like that?  
    A friend who's into Maserati tells me his stories all the time. 
 

Saturn Ion Redline?  I've seen running ones as cheap as $3000 on FB Marketplace.

Big block Forte, 2010-2013. FAT NA torque curve, decent power, good brakes, TCS could still be turned all the way off. I miss mine every day. 

Rio/Accent 2012-2016 are still fun. Gearing in the manual sucks, but they make good power, TCS is still a button push away and there's enough support to make them silly as all get out. 

All I want to know is what happened to all the 2000s Pontiac Grand Am and Grand Prix?

yupididit said:

All i want to know is what happened to all the 2000s Pontiac Grand Am and Grand Prix?

Between rust, and attrition from the kind of people who bought them used.  

The only way to buy one was with cash or from a shady buy-here-pay-here lot, since almost nobody would give a loan on one after 2008 or so because full coverage was difficult/impossible to get.  Same for Oldsmobiles and SAABs.  Instantly depreciated the heck out of them.

Still think it'd be cool to have a 4 cylinder Alero 2 door.

yupididit said:

All I want to know is what happened to all the 2000s Pontiac Grand Am and Grand Prix?

They fell apart... like all other early 2000s GM products 

frenchyd said:

Newer cars , all newer cars are harder for the DIY guy to work on. Everything from how do you get the plastic covers off to access issues and complex technology. 
     4-6-8-12 cylinders the fundamentals are the same.  Is 8 really harder than 6 or 4? Or 12? Fuel,  spark,  4 strokes.  
      Watch  a few UTube video's on those issues you don't yet understand.  And go for it. 
once you've done it a few times you'll wonder what you were afraid of.   
  
One final point. The bigger the engine the slower it tends to work.  And the less wear it has.  
 

I can't see this as being universally true.  Many aspects of newer vehicles are a lot easier to deal with, it just depends on the specific car.  The second my car feels a little off I hit an icon on my phone and can scan for codes at a stoplight; usually I've pinpointed the exact part that's causing the problem before I get to where I'm going.

I enjoy watching YouTube videos of people working on and tearing down engines which is why I asked the question.  Because you can have the transmission out of, and back in your 4 speed Pontiac to replace other hard to get to parts a lot faster than digging far enough to even see one of the turbos on these engines.  Heaven help you if there's a leak under one of them, and there will be, because that's just how they are.

In reply to MrFancypants :

I can easily adjust a set of points and tune carbs. Rebuild a V12? Sure,let's get at it.  
    But trying to figure out EFI is a major pain.  That's because I grew up doing the former and doing the later is new to me.  
 I wouldn't know what to do on a modern BMW or Mercedes.  But I'll bet I can find out on UTube.  

In reply to frenchyd :

That's the key.  If you're thrown into it blind, it's a struggle.  But if the info on how to diagnose it is made available (as a service manual or otherwise) and you can get your hands on the right tools, then it's not so bad.  Same idea as working on a carb.  If you know generally how that model of carb works and what tools you need, you'll be fine.  But if you don't, you're probably going to get something wrong before you figure it out. 

Really, most of the things people worry about are complete non-issues.

The real issues are consumables like front end parts, wheel bearings, etc.  Or interior trim parts, or weird things like A/C hardlines. I am unconcerned with finding out a communications error between this modulemand that module because issues like that are very rare.  More of a problem is when aftermarket parts quality goes downhill after a certain age, or the manufacturer's parts are still available but priced like they have to cover still supporting a car that is four generations old.

Find rear brake calipers for an RX-7 GSL-SE.  Or any calipers at all for an FC.  Nobody makes 'em.  Worrying about if the FC' Logicon is any good (spoiler: there were online DIY repair guides while the cars were still new) is unimportant if you can't drive the car.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

I agree with the idea most people worry about the wrong thing. For example, fuel mileage!!! One clutch job or brake job could cost more than you can save in better fuel mileage.