What do we really know about that Toyota GR86 engine failure?

GameboyRMH said:

Remember that just recently lemachin on this forum had warranty coverage denied on his 2016 BRZ when the engine sang the song of its people, because the dealership had found that he'd done HPDEs with it, and this was in Ontario...so the problem isn't specific to Gulf States Toyota or even Toyota in general.

I do remember that. 

Weird, the Subaru part of the Toyota was the first thing to go? Suuuuper weird. Big part of why I would choose an ND over a GT86, every time, even though the twins are great to drive.

"Finally, remember to be a responsible consumer of media. Check sources, even if it means just opening a second browser tab and googling the name of a person or a company. It seems a lot of the heat around this incident stems from information that is quickly thrown into the public sphere and lacks context. Sometimes, simply providing that context can help better ground a story in reality."

This. So much this. This should be the header, in bold, that you have to scroll past on ANY news site. Maybe then our critical thinking levels, as a society, will improve a bit. To note though, I'd rather someone be encouraged to *search* rather than use a specific (and frequently manipulative) search engine. =)

@Keith Tanner, did Mazda sort out the transmission issue by the time the ND2 was released? That's the version I'd be after anyhow.

I second escalating to corporate if the dealer isn't playing ball.  Made the difference between paying for a transmission rebuild or having it covered under warranty.   May not always work but it doesn't hurt to try.  

Finally, remember to be a responsible consumer of media.

oooohhhooooo no you don't.  I have zero dog in the fight but I'm going to read the headline and get out the pitchforks!  My hot take on this is going out on every major media platform on the globe ASAP.

te72, that was my exact response. It's a Subaru engine, pretty much what I'd suspect.

In reply to te72 :

As far as I know, the transmission problems have been sorted out. It wasn't an ND1/ND2 thing, it was a series of running changes to the trans with various VIN splits.

If I were running an ND trans on the track, I'd change out the case studs (fairly easy to do even with the trans in the car) and install a cooler. Our testing has shown that it's not that hard to get the transmission oil to 300F, and it stays there for a very long time once you've heat-soaked it. That'll give the trans the best chance of surviving.

Our development ND has a set of expensive aftermarket gears in it to ensure it doesn't break, but that's because we're not interested in testing transmissions and we can't afford down time in a testing program.

IIRC there were like five revisions of nd1 trans, it seems like either they finally resolved it or most everyone has just stopped autocrossing them by now. The global cup cars got switched to a fancy racing sequential at some point. The nd2 has a dual mass flywheel and maybe another revision of transmission, and I don't think I've heard of any failing.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Correct me if I am wrong, but Subaru played this same card many years ago when they had problems with weak gearboxes. They gave out free SCCA memberships ( or something similar) and then used the data from entry forms to deny warranty claims. 

Always tell the people that ask about the FRS that the only bad part is the Subaru part.

In reply to Hoondavan :

So I wonder which dealership employee is frustrated by not being able to match the times of the owner of the car?

My cynical side wonders if Toyota sitting back to watch what happens while the dealer taking the heat, and when they feel it's the right time they can jump in as the hero to cover the claim?

Interesting to note that this is being picked up on by the Japanese as well...

(First comment roughly translated: 3,000 miles (4,800 km) after delivery, the engine seems to have locked up  Summer production  When going out, we recommend that you perform maintenance before going out )

In reply to NOHOME :

I remember the same thing. 

pointofdeparture said:

Interesting to note that this is being picked up on by the Japanese as well...

(First comment roughly translated: 3,000 miles (4,800 km) after delivery, the engine seems to have locked up  Summer production  When going out, we recommend that you perform maintenance before going out )

That's a screenshot from a video from months ago. And IIRC the car has just left the dealer, so I don't think it's related.

In reply to z31maniac :

Right, but if people are talking about the oil pickup getting clogged across the Pacific in Toyota/Subaru's homeland, that means that word is getting around, and I would guess similar things have been found there.

I'm pretty close to the guy this happened to, though I don't have any super in depth info to share. What I DO have is a ton of memes.

I've got over 30 I made the last few days. If you're on any SCCA facebook groups you've probably seen most of them. Edit: figured out copy paste works pretty quick so a few more below.

There are a few spicier ones out there I won't post here.

In reply to engiekev :

I think that is 100% status quo for Porsche. Their handling of the IMS, d-chunk, and bore scoring issues with the m96/97 was pretty bad. Reading all of the BS denials really turned me off the brand...regardless of how cool they look!

Quick update: I talked to Blake yesterday around 5:30, and a lot had happened in the previous 24 hours since the story broke.

Long story short, the issue reached Toyota corporate, and they have expressed to him that they are going to take care of him under warranty. Aside from that, there's really not much I can say because the rest of the situation is now under investigation to determine what information that got out to the public was true, what was hyperbole, what was outright false, and who might have been responsible for the mishandling of this claim, or whether the claim was handled properly but the policy was bad, or a million other permutations of situations to determine how it went from a guy buying a brand-new car that should theoretically be able to handle such use to a guy with a broken car and an internet firestorm.

Another matter at hand is the matter of the assembly of the engines in question, and whether there is indeed a production problem with them leading to this failure. There is anecdotal evidence in the public sphere at the moment showing that this RTV situation might not be an isolated incident. Anecdotes are not data, but anecdotes are worthy of further exploration to determine whether data is present, and it is our understanding that that is the point Toyota is currently at. We're pursuing that line of investigation and we'll keep you updated when we know stuff.

Another, more holistic question emerges from this incident that affects all of us, though: As car manufacturers lean more heavily in to using track performance as a marketing tool, how does this marketing model on the front end affect the service model on the back end? If you pitch a car as a track day monster, are you obliged to service it as such? That's a much bigger and more far reaching question that we'l be discussing in editorial meetings, and hopefully with manufacturer reps in the near future.

Thank you for continuing to stamp out the raging  fires of asshat-ism.

JG Pasterjak said:

Another, more holistic question emerges from this incident that affects all of us, though: As car manufacturers lean more heavily in to using track performance as a marketing tool, how does this marketing model on the front end affect the service model on the back end? If you pitch a car as a track day monster, are you obliged to service it as such? That's a much bigger and more far reaching question that we'l be discussing in editorial meetings, and hopefully with manufacturer reps in the near future.

I would say that if you're marketing a car for track use, you should not be denying warranty coverage simply because the car was used on track (or closed parking lot). Unfortunately that seems to be the more common arrangement, oddly one rare exception to this rule is that Toyota in the UK has explicitly stated that track use will not void warranties on the GR86.

GameboyRMH said:

JG Pasterjak said:

Another, more holistic question emerges from this incident that affects all of us, though: As car manufacturers lean more heavily in to using track performance as a marketing tool, how does this marketing model on the front end affect the service model on the back end? If you pitch a car as a track day monster, are you obliged to service it as such? That's a much bigger and more far reaching question that we'l be discussing in editorial meetings, and hopefully with manufacturer reps in the near future.

I would say that if you're marketing a car for track use, you should not be denying warranty coverage simply because the car was used on track (or closed parking lot). Unfortunately that seems to be the more common arrangement, oddly one rare exception to this rule is that Toyota in the UK has explicitly stated that track use will not void warranties on the GR86.

Agreed, like I said on the Facebook page. It's a cop out. Just like Nissan including launch control on the GTR and then denying drivetrain coverage if you actually used a feature they included. 

Also thanks JG, perfect example of why I've subscribed to this mag for almost 20 years. 

Somewhat off topic, but a question for the GRM guys.

IIRC, Honda gave you guys a Civic Si to play with and use at track days. Did they ever say anything about how the use in such a way would affect the warranty, or being that it was a loaner (I think?) that point never came up and was not discussed?

I read a few of the articles online and didn't think either of them were irresponsible in any way. Neither blamed anybody, and only reported on what the situation was. Guy blows up fairly new sports car during autocross, warranty claim is denied based on a picture, and and there seems to be other instances of similar engine problems. Were they quick to report something without all the facts? Maybe, but I don't think they claimed to know all the facts, either.

From the original FB post:

I inspected the motor and took photos of the oil pickup and the excess sealant which I showed to the Service Manager and Toyota Corporate. I explained to Toyota Corporate that according to the Service Manager, the FTS had still not been to the dealership to physically inspect the motor even after the sealant issue was raised. The case manager with Toyota Corporate stated she had taken it as high as the Regional Manager for Gulf States Toyota and everyone involved is standing by the FTS and Dealers decision.

I spoke with the Service Manager at the Dealer and requested further escalation or consideration for a goodwill claim. He did not entertain this nor any other compromise on the repair (50/50, parts only, labor only, etc.) and stated that he valued the dealerships reputation with Toyota and did not want to compromise that by approving something the FTS and Toyota Corporate had already determined was not warrantable.

In this instance, I think the media did their job, and the FB post served a customer well who appeared to be getting the shaft by not only the dealer , but Toyota corporate as well. If FB was the only tool I had left I would have used it in the same way.

Slippery said:

Somewhat off topic, but a question for the GRM guys.

IIRC, Honda gave you guys a Civic Si to play with and use at track days. Did they ever say anything about how the use in such a way would affect the warranty, or being that it was a loaner (I think?) that point never came up and was not discussed?

Press cars are a totally different beast. 

Fun story about that - I was at a shoot for NBC's "Proving Grounds". They had a BMW something, something I would have called an M3 10 years ago but is now something like an 235i M Sport Handling Package or some other finely specified model. They also had a Hyundai N Veloster. The shoot was at Chuckwalla which is in the middle of nowhere. 

They burned the rear tires off the BMW, because of course that's what you do with a powerful RWD press car at a track. Called BMW for some more, they said "Nothing in LA. If you drive to the dealer in Vegas they might have some, good luck". The team ended up swapping in a set of front tires from a Mustang also at the test to the BMW. Wrong spec and skinnier, but that's what they had to do in order to finish their test which included a timed lap.

Meanwhile, Hyundai had provided at least two spare sets of wheels and tires for their car because they know what happens when you send a Veloster N to a racetrack with a bunch of journalists and TV cameras. I had a spare set of rubber in the truck for the car I'd brought as well.

I've always wondered what Ford's press fleet manager thought when the car came back with a set of mismatched bald tires on the front.