I like a heavy FWD car for crap weather driving. Not fun to drive, but it'll get you where you need to go. My 2006 malibu is a freakin tank in the snow/ice, as was my previous DD, a 1998 Bonnevile. A gentle right foot (and the occasional left foot brake trick in the really nasty spots) is all you need in one of those.
Bah, 2660lb manual Elantra is unstoppable, not heavy and it is fun to rotate
Swank Force One wrote:
In reply to Mazda787b:
+1 for XJ being damn near useless in 2wd. Almost maddening.
Someone mentioned front heavy fwd cars oversteering like crazy in snow.
True. But fun.
yearss ago on my 88 XJ 4.7L stroker (rust in peace) i lost the stupid vacuum disconnect front axle function putting into 4wd during the first snow storm. i already had a lunchbox locker in the rear and good bfg A/Ts so after failing to get the vacuum motor to reliably work i gave up and drove it all winter in 2wd.... i found it to be pretty great actually. most predictable snow drifting vehicle i've had.
but right now i'm using MiataMe's lifted/locked 99 XJ and it's downright awesome in 4wd, but really fun/capable in 2wd too.
with the rear diff open though XJ's cant do anything even in the rain.
carbon
HalfDork
1/5/14 8:55 p.m.
Defeatable traction control is pivotal. So is an lsd. I love my rwd car (IS300) in the snow with an lsd and snow tires, unstoppable and hilarious.
I remember when I was at dealerships, we would try and move the cars, we would get stuck just cause the traction control would keep the car from spinning enough to clean out the tires, or youd start to make progress and tracs would stop you dead.
my old 318ti had a factory LSD and Star Specs that I ran all year. With the LSD, if I got stuck, I could get the wheels spinning and then engage the clutch, this would stop the wheels dead, but the momentum would get transferred to the car itself, moving it forwards.
It was great fun getting it going on a snowy road. Until I got it "up to speed" I would be sideways down the road. People used to give me a -lot- of room even though I was completely in control
Tires. spent the winter a few years back driving a V8 4 speed Ranchero with new snow tires - never a problem, never.
NGTD
Dork
1/5/14 9:56 p.m.
After all these comments, I still have to say - I LOVE my WRX with snow tires.
We are in the middle of a storm that is supposed to give us 8-10" of snow. I made an excuse to go get milk just so I could go have fun on the unplowed roads.
I had a 98 jetta 2.0 5 speed in high school. On blizzaks I frequently passed trucks that we're fish tailing wildly at 5 mph (my hometown wasn't good about salting or plowing). It was great, except in real cold, when the thing would just die. Or even better, our school had open campus lunch, but they wouldn't let us back in until class time so we had to sit in our cars. If it was below 0, the jettas engine would cool off sitting in the lot to the point where the vents went cold unless I was revving it. Long story short great in the snow, sucked in winter cold. It had an open diff and I was wishing for a limited slip more often than I thought an open one was good enough.
My wife has a g20t which is supposed to have a limited slip diff, but it isn't really. Maybe a little bit, but at 140k miles it isn't really working. Again, it is missed.
carbon wrote:
Defeatable traction control is pivotal. So is an lsd. I love my rwd car (IS300) in the snow with an lsd and snow tires, unstoppable and hilarious.
I remember when I was at dealerships, we would try and move the cars, we would get stuck just cause the traction control would keep the car from spinning enough to clean out the tires, or youd start to make progress and tracs would stop you dead.
This too. I never had a car with traction control until my rx8 which doesn't get driven in snow anyway, but when visiting my parents on their unplowed roads I got frustrated a lot by hitting the pedal and having nothing happen. I kept thinking something was wrong, but no, it was just icy and their truck refused to try to put out the power unless in 4wd mode.
carbon wrote:
Defeatable traction control is pivotal. So is an lsd. I love my rwd car (IS300) in the snow with an lsd and snow tires, unstoppable and hilarious.
I remember when I was at dealerships, we would try and move the cars, we would get stuck just cause the traction control would keep the car from spinning enough to clean out the tires, or youd start to make progress and tracs would stop you dead.
I find this interesting. I've used TC on a couple of FWD cars with no LSD. It certainly sapped the fun out of driving in the snow, but works pretty well... especially for the average idiot who thinks if they aren't going anywhere, they should push the pedal down further.
carbon wrote:
Defeatable traction control is pivotal.
The Kia Rondo system is designed to cut power 99.5% when slippage is detected, and keep it off for 30 seconds. So when pulling onto a busy intersection, if you hit a small bit of gravel, you are dead in the water for a while. Thank goodness it has a button to turn it off!
I agree with most of what has been said. Tires and driver make a huge difference. We had a 2000 avalon on all seasons that was terrible in the snow.( By the way toyota traction control and abs feels rarher archaic in the snow.) In a moment if frustration we decided to try snow tires (altimax arctic). We live in MN.
My wife and I were so impressed by the traction improvement we decided we were alwaws going to make room in the budget for snow tires. The peace of mind for us is definarely worth the cost.
We couldnt get up our 50 ft inclined driveway without a running start many rimes. After snow tires, I would purposefully stop in the middle of the driveway to see if I could make it without baking up. Made it up pretty much everytime--unless there was significant ice under or over the snow.
Another wonderful thing I noticed was that the archaic traction and stability control "suddenly" felt very well calibrated--especcially taking tyrns in snow covered roads at parking lot low to medium speeds, I could feel the traction and in certain cases see feather the power to preserve traction. Instead of understeering and going straight, the xar was actualyy able to keep the arch of the turn. The tires made that hopeless system much better. I still dont like "toyota" abs in the snow. The lock release period of the abs feels too long. Thismis in sharb contrast to my previous 97 m3.
About Prii (prius) beeing bad in the snow. We have an 08. On snow tires, it is just as capable as the avalon if not more so, because of a better traction control system. I will drive it in any winter weather event short of an ice storm.
Finally, my 95 camry wagon on snows stops better than anything I have ever dricen in the snow. No ABS ftw in this case.
WilberM3 wrote:
Swank Force One wrote:
In reply to Mazda787b:
+1 for XJ being damn near useless in 2wd. Almost maddening.
Someone mentioned front heavy fwd cars oversteering like crazy in snow.
True. But fun.
yearss ago on my 88 XJ 4.7L stroker (rust in peace) i lost the stupid vacuum disconnect front axle function putting into 4wd during the first snow storm. i already had a lunchbox locker in the rear and good bfg A/Ts so after failing to get the vacuum motor to reliably work i gave up and drove it all winter in 2wd.... i found it to be pretty great actually. most predictable snow drifting vehicle i've had.
but right now i'm using MiataMe's lifted/locked 99 XJ and it's downright awesome in 4wd, but really fun/capable in 2wd too.
with the rear diff open though XJ's cant do anything even in the rain.
Mine was a Up-Country, so 3.73 Trac Loc. Not sure if the clutches were toast or what. Most of the issue was @ freeway speed when going over "mounds" of snow between lanes. Part of which is thanks to the wonderful City of Detroit and their lack of municipal services. This was with fresh ~30" Michelin LTXs too.
In similar news, the locking hubs on the F-250 are shot. Didn't have time to replace between snowstorms last week. That thing is absolutely useless in 2wd without any sand in the bed. At least being a ZF6, I can control wheel speed a lot better.
I haven't read all the responses, but besides the obvious tires, weight is important. Of all the vehicles I've owned, my stock Jeep Grand Wagoneer was the best, possibly tied with the Forester I had.
My vote is tires. I've had snow tires on the Escort, Malibu and Fiat and all have been unstoppable. On the other hand the worst I've ever driven is a city bus. Aside from tires it should have everything going for it. Comically long wheelbase, ample mass and a cast iron lump of engine dangling out behind the drive wheels and it is paralyzed in a half inch of snow by it's regrooved bologna skins in the rear and the least aggressive possible front treads known to man. We put chains on them to get some forward motion but they still have an annoying tendency to slide off the crown of the road as you stop. The worst feeling I've had driving is the helpless slide towards the curb as customers walk out into the street to the bus.
you reminded me Wally, of a scary time I had in a rental truck. All the commercial trucks I ran were manuals.. one time when the truck was in the shop, we rented a 26 foot mitsu box truck with an autotrans.. as I was leaving atlantic city, it was just beginning to snow. Getting out, I had to negotiate one last intersection where I had to make a lazy left (intersection was not perpendicular) and as I made it half way across, the trans upshifted. This broke the rear wheels free and the box tried to pass the cab. I collected it all together and went down the road like nothing was wrong.. but all the cars were hanging -way- back after that
I read a lot about TC. Must be other makes are different.
With Blizzaks, the TC doesn't stay on long enough for the power to get cut.
Of course the old fashioned TC still works.
Let up on the throttle to reduce power.
This is on my Fiesta.
In reply to mad_machine:
We usually put the transmissions in 1st or 2nd. That eliminates the unexpected up shifts and they engine brake almost to a crawl cutting down on the butt puckering use of the brakes.
a couple of notes on LSD.
-
the type of LSD really matters in snow. clutch pack LSD will help go but might hinder turning (see point two). a viscous LSD should help go and should not hinder turning. a torsen LSD needs to be driven with the simultaneous braking method (it multiplies torque, if you have zero on the spinning wheel then zero torque goes to the other - if you apply some brake to give some torque to the spinning wheel, that is multiplied to the other to help go). hummer's have torsens, and this is the technique to use if you get a wheel off the ground in a hummer.
-
a clutch-pack LSD will help you go, since it helps drive two wheels instead of one. In really low traction situations though, it can actually hinder turning. Reason is they will undoubtedly be 'sprung' for dry, high traction torque loads, and on low traction ice, there will not be enough torque from the road to actually make the thing slip. thus the tires on both sides spin the same speed and this resists turning. this is unaffected by throttle or brake application (unless you break traction completely I guess).
The best winter car I ever had was my RT4WD Civic wagon on studded snows. It really had it all - good tires, AWD, good handling (EF Civic), adequate but not overwhelming power (D16A6 - same as an Si)... Yeah. That was fun.
My 91 Sentra SE-R, also with studded snows, was darn good, too. All the advantages of the Civic except AWD, but it was FWD with LSD. It didn't get up and go as quickly, but it was still quite good, and once underway it was great fun.
I have to admit, I'm pleasantly surprised at how well my P71 does in the snow. The V8 is way too much power, of course, but if I'm light on the throttle, the Traction Loc diff, snow tires, and sheer mass of the car help it move right along. Of course, if I'm NOT light on the throttle, shenanigans ensue...
Oh, and the answer is always Miata - as long as it has snow tires.
wae
Reader
1/6/14 9:05 p.m.
Wally wrote:
My vote is tires. I've had snow tires on the Escort, Malibu and Fiat and all have been unstoppable. On the other hand the worst I've ever driven is a city bus. Aside from tires it should have everything going for it. Comically long wheelbase, ample mass and a cast iron lump of engine dangling out behind the drive wheels and it is paralyzed in a half inch of snow by it's regrooved bologna skins in the rear and the least aggressive possible front treads known to man. We put chains on them to get some forward motion but they still have an annoying tendency to slide off the crown of the road as you stop. The worst feeling I've had driving is the helpless slide towards the curb as customers walk out into the street to the bus.
During the last snowpocalypse we had (was it three inches, maybe?), a local news crew had one of their "b-roll" cameras sitting on one of the local hills when a city bus managed to sideswipe a parked car.
Apparently a bunch of viewers started complaining since the bus driver didn't stop (in the middle of a hill that was obviously more treacherous than it looked). Of course, once the driver got the bus to the top of the hill and didn't need both hands and a sphincter, it was called in and it was no big deal.
On topic: I've had great luck with my E-150 conversion vans in the snow. Lots of weight, LSD, and Michelin LTX M/S2s seem to be a winning combination. I know they're "no season" tires, but honestly I've never really found myself wishing for more tire with these. The only time I really got stuck was trying to pull 5,000 or so pounds worth of rallycross car and trailer up a really steep hill made out of frozen mud. But that was more just to see if it could be done than anything else.
I tend to favor 4WD or AWD vehicles these days, but back in the stone ages my corvair was unstoppable in show over the headlights if you drove it right. Same thing with my wife's Beetle. But this brings up a problem with rear-engine vehicles (particularly air cooled ones)- no heat in the front area leads to snow packing the wheel wells so you eventually can't turn the front wheels. Carry a big screwdriver and be ready to dig out the wheel wells periodically.
My favorite winter car is a VSLD Miatas until the snow gets too deep and it is just plowing. A lot of what makes a good winter car is the same as a good summer car. Cars that give a lot of feedback on what is happening at the tire patch make life easier, specially after you put on snow tires which numb feedback. My wife's Explorer is too numb and I have a hard time knowing what traction levels are.
Time may have made the memory fonder, but one of the most capable cars I have driven in the winter was the '91 Dodge Colt I learned to drive in. With 155 snow tires it would accelerate well and slide through corners easily.
If you are use to 2 wheel drive and go to 4 wheel drive it can be a bit challenging to remember that just because the car is accelerating harder doesn't mean there is more traction for turning or braking.
I dislike stability control in the snow. I had a JCW MINI and if I didn't turn the stability control off I would be fighting the system in a slide. It was kind of like having someone in the passenger seat with another steering wheel and you had to react to the slide and to what the passenger was doing to try and correct the slide.
Other cars I have used as winter vehicles were a Neon, Protege5, 4X2 Dakota, full size Dodge van, V70R and open diff Miata. The VLSD Miata is still my first choice, though sliding around a '78 Sunshine Orange Dodge Van is amusing. This was my winter beater last year http://motoringguard.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=page_4 equipped for cross country ski racing.
The lowered suspension and missing undertray (the engine compartment would pack full of snow causing belt slip and low charging) weren't the best in a UP snow squall, but it never stranded me. It had 259,000 hard miles on it when I bought it and I put another 10,000 on it last winter.