I do track days in entirely different cars but I liked the Falked Azenis (615k+). They benefit from warming up but they hung on admirably while I did my utter best to chew them up while learning. They get a +1 from me. From my limited experience, they would give you a relatively even footing, a pretty forgiving tire, and really you shouldn't have to worry about them so you can focus more on upgrading the space between your ears.
Dusterbd13-michael said:In reply to captainawesome :
I'm trying to do that but my problem is that I can't seem to pick up how they're doing it. It's all just happening so incredibly fast I can't follow
You're learning a new language. Right now it all sounds like gibberish because you don't know enough of it to be able to hear the distinct words much less understand and translate them real time.
Immerse yourself in this language as much as possible. Take as many runs as you can. Ride as much as you can. Walk the course as much as you can. When you ride, feel the car through your butt and you feet. Keep your eyes up when riding. Make mistskes and start to understand why you made them.
A perfect autocross run is the right speed everywhere. When you drive, when I drive, we are either too fast or too slow everywhere. You want to stand right on that fence, eventually, but for now you want to know which side you are on and how to get closer to it. If your region has a school, rookie school, advanced school, practice day, do all those things.
Autocross is a beautiful difficult thing and few people ever get really good at it without years of runs umder their tires.
And or you can access the Solo National link here (er elsewhere in this forum) and see what all the top guns prefer to wear come show time............
In reply to captdownshift :
Im trying to get away from swapping out tirrs at the event. I want to drive to, run, drive home. Minimum of tools and effort
Warren: the instructor time was 55.xx mine was 62.xx. most of the really fast guys were low 50s. So, 10% or so? But you're right. I am being a little too hard on myself. Ive got three events in this car this year. With one event every year or two in different cars for the preceding 5 years or so. I dont want to blame equipment, as its all a matter of seat time. But im trying to get the right equipment to make the most of my seat time.
Seth: that was beautifully written. That is my goal for next year. Learn how to dance with myself and my partner. Part of my real struggle is short term memory. I have extreme difficulties in learning the course, and remembering the course. I know some of it is lingering effects of head trauma, but still. It makes perfect sense while walking the course. I can see the line, how it flows, where i want the car. And can't remember hardly any by tge end of the walk. I can get some sections stuck in my brain for the whole walk, but then it looks completely different from the seat.
Is there anything i can do to help this?
In hindsight this thread really did start out to be about tires, but thats the least important thing for me at this point from what im reading. As long as they don't mask bad habits, are round, black, and hold air, im good.
Thanks guys. I really appreciate all this.
In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :
Star Wars. Han is flying the Falcon and they want to make the jump to light speed but the computer needs to calculate it first. Humans can fly around at normal speed, but at light speed they'd run into a planet because they can't react fast enough.
You will learn to "see faster" as you do this. In all honesty I only try to memorize one or maaaaaaybe two corners on a course walk. What I'm looking for are those corners that will either be dangerous (on a track) or are going to be weird enough that I need to remember them, or just me trying to remember. 95% of my first run is driving what I see. This is why I suck at three run nationals type events, but that's not the point, the point is to drive the course at a speed that lets you see it. Go faster from there.
To answer your tire question, you need something that will make learning as easy as possible. A tire that is grippy enough to have the chassis work as designed, but communicates over a broad enough range of slip angle to.give you time to listen, to hear, and to make a correction.
In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :
So which tire would that be? I cant feel/hear anything with the current no seasons or sm7s....
Am i barking up the wrong tree with a 200tw?
Call Tire Rack, ask for Brad (he might be at nationals) and order literally any of the 200tw tires. The 615k will do what you want but so will most anything else until it heat cycles out.
The advantage of the 200tw tire class is that they're all designed to do what you're trying to do. Some last a bit longer. Some are better in the wet. Some will give you that last 0.05 of a second at nationals. They will all do the job.
Do Falkens or Nexens. They are pretty fast and will be fun, but you won't spend too much as you learn.
I don't recommend Westlakes, and I've autocrossed them, so I have experience. Here's why: you won't really know how far you are from the competition because the tires will be costing you a lot of time, even if you learn car control. You will still learn car control with 200TW, they don't cover up that much, in my experience.
I try to walk the course and imagine that it's all happening at speed. Bend over and look at sections and imagine they are happening really, really fast. That helps a bit. I sometimes draw the course on a piece of paper too.
Autocross is hard. You aren't the only one who has taken a long time to learn it.
Definitely takes time to settle into a fast car too. Last year when I went from the stock 1.6L to the 245whp 1.8 in my Miata, I was a mess all season. It hasn't been until the second half of this season plus 5 or 6 time trial dealies that I'm finally starting to get a handle on the car and feel comfortable and start cracking off good times
I think the tire you want depends on the size and price of what's available. I have been happy with the 615k+ for my car, but I would love to have been able to justify re71 in my size. Price difference gets to be a larger margin the larger diameter you go it seems. There may still be some lingering deals from the holiday that could help drop the price too. I'm fairly certain Bridgestone was running some rebates.
Like Seth mentioned above, the more you do this, the more you get comfortable going almost blind into a course. I used to walk courses 2-3 times if possible. Now it's 1 unless there's some tricky crossovers or sections that feel like they will be giving me some trouble. Most of the cones might as well not exist as they won't effect how you drive, and after a while you begin to see which ones are important. Also, some courses just happen to flow and click upstairs upstairs in the gray matter better than others too.
When I first started out my goal was to just try and progress from run to run. Start out with the goal to just finish the course. Each run after try to pick up some time where I felt most comfortable pushing a little further. Most of the time I could pick up 5-6 seconds from my first run. Now I try to sit myself in grid far enough away from a good driver so I have enough time to ride along with them before my first run.
This is not the conventional wisdom, but I'll post it up here for the derision that's sure to follow.
One of my friends, a road racer going back to the 60s, and former solo national champ, has said that he recommends setting up the car the way you want it when you start out.
Then you only have to learn it once.
In my case, I started last year in a 2001 Miata sport six speed. Stock suspension, eBay shocks, 400 tread wear tires. About six or so events later, I bought a set of two year old/used re-71s for the car.
I had to figure it out, but eventually did improve.
Then I switched to another Miata, a 99 sport that had already been to Nationals. It came with some used Rivals. Again, I wasn't any faster for the first few events. I was trying to drive it like my old car. I'm getting the car figured out, but the Rivals are aging out.
Next event, I'll be on fresh tires for the first time ever.
A couple things car set up and driver are indeed intertwined. I've instructed loads of newbies at track days and gone two corners in there car and asked them why they have the rebound damping cranked full on.
Here's why; most newbies (autocross or road course) come roaring up to a corner, stand the car on the nose, then just as the car starts to turn pop off the brake pedal, then as a reaction to driver induced understeer wind on more steering and then when the car snaps into the corner winds on more throttle to catch the tail.
So what the heck does this have to do with tire choice? Well as we are talking a modified car you can't simple go with a super hard tire that will let the driver learn because the car will never work as intended, the balance on hard tires will not be the same as it is on sticky tires. The 200tw tire will be a good compromise.
Michael I do have an idea for your memory issue; get a navigator rally style. If you get a cheap intercom and have them call out the course for you as you go. The big issue is going to be slowing down just enough so that you can think about what you're doing as you do it. Try driving 85-95%.
Autocrossing is so much more a mental game than people appreciate. I've instructed at autocross for 10 years now. Retention and processing speed are the biggest hurdles for anyone starting out. If you have memory difficulties, you really shouldn't be hard on yourself.
If I'm really on for a event I want to be able to sit in my car before my first run and recreate what the run will be. Not every cone, but key cones and lines. I agree with the above statement about noobs starting the car on its nose. Many if not most new people overly focus on braking points, my approach and what I teach is to instead focus on corner exits. If you get the car positioned right and hit your throttle on point, braking will have come together with little conscious thought, at least not the over focus that is the problem.
With time and regular practice, you learn what you do and don't have to really apply your heads processing power to and what you do and don't have to remember. Efficiency of thought. It takes practice.
Another rabbit hole is between run activities. Worry more about your mental state than getting tire pressure and temp perfect, at least until you get consistency and focus easially
Dusterbd13-michael said:In reply to captainawesome :
I'm trying to do that but my problem is that I can't seem to pick up how they're doing it. It's all just happening so incredibly fast I can't follow
mount a video camera that watches the driver so you can review
Dusterbd13-michael said:In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :
So which tire would that be? I cant feel/hear anything with the current no seasons or sm7s....
Am i barking up the wrong tree with a 200tw?
No I think the 200TW/EPS would be best, I'm not sure which model in particular would be the most ideal but something in that range...probably not the super-sticky cheater models because they're a bit too much like R-comps.
“Processing speed” is exactly what’s holding up my son right now. We co-drive the same car and he’s been riding along with me for years, but he’s only had his actual license for a year and he just doesn’t have the processing speed up yet. I’ll catch him admiring or complaining about the thing he just did rather than getting ready for what is next. There is no time during an autoX run to rest or dwell on the past, only set up the next thing.
Right now he’s two seconds slower than me on a 40 second course and everything he does looks fine. It just isn’t quick enough. I kinda suspect that’s what you’re doing.
(And on your car, the RE-71s are $130 each. Less than half that from any number of Miata people)
Things I've said to students "don't think just drive" comes to mind.
Dusterbd13-michael said:In reply to captainawesome :
I'm trying to do that but my problem is that I can't seem to pick up how they're doing it. It's all just happening so incredibly fast I can't follow
Two things I learned to do better this season: don’t just look ahead, THINK ahead by at least two turns. And think of most turns as just one turn, not every turn is a turn, some turns are actually just one big turn. Linking them gives you proper entry and carries speed.
mazdeuce - Seth said:The advantage of the 200tw tire class is that they're all designed to do what you're trying to do. Some last a bit longer. Some are better in the wet. Some will give you that last 0.05 of a second at nationals. They will all do the job.
All of this.
I advise against learning on any ultra-crap tires. The jump from those to 200tw stuff is so insane it'll take you a few events just to get your bearings again. Additionally, going to 200tw sooner rather than later may expose weaknesses in your car setup and allow you to correct them sooner. And finally, 200tw tires will actually last a lot longer than many of the 600tw tires - ask any le-chump team :P
Dusterbd - if you are doing any autoxes up this way let me know. If you are looking for a co-driver/instructor, let me know. I'm looking to dip my toes back in. I can contribute to the tire fund.
I think as far as tires go, ill run the federal 200tw for next season. Purely because they're cheap.
Is there any off season/street/driveway mental training i can do? Seems like some of this boils down to brain training at a basic level. But, at $80+ an event, and 4 runs once a month, it seems prudent to try to improve cheaper/free/local in between.
And video games dont seem to work for me at all.....
In reply to ProDarwin :
I would actually love to find a co-driver and instructor for next year. Someone to teach/navigate/critique/etc. I generally run with ccrscca, but am definately interested in other clubs with hopefully cheaper fees and more runs. Our group at zmax is huge, but so are the courses.
You would be more than welcome to be my guy. Just know its a really odd car....
Dusterbd13-michael said:I think as far as tires go, ill run the federal 200tw for next season. Purely because they're cheap.
Is there any off season/street/driveway mental training i can do? Seems like some of this boils down to brain training at a basic level. But, at $80+ an event, and 4 runs once a month, it seems prudent to try to improve cheaper/free/local in between.
And video games dont seem to work for me at all.....
There are a few ways to get practice. You can do it on the streets, but it’s circumstantial, a bit risky, and you definitely have to do it during off peak traffic hours. I have an under construction housing development nearby. It has a round a bout, no one lives there (yet), and it’s off any busy streets.this tiny roundabout is great for testing low speed tight turns
I also have a unique area nearby. It’s a mountain road that leads to a castle in the clouds. That castle is the site of an ancient volcanic eruption. Due to this volcanic field of rock, there are 15ft high walls of lava rock on each side of the 5 linked hairpin turns. The nicest part of this is that no one is up there around 10pm, you can see headlights coming ahead, and because it’s a lava field, no large animals exist, and the walls prevent flying off a cliff. I drive up slow to ensure no cyclists or cars, in the parking lot of the cast,e, I turn around. And those five turns are my way of shaking down higher speed, hard turning.
I don’t know if you have anything like this nearby, but use your knowledge of the area to find places like this.
I was thinking more about the mental part than the physical limits/interaction with the car. Learning to think quicker, think ahead of my current position. Im fairly ok with feeling the chassis (compared to the head part). Theres some roundabouts, less travel roads, etc nearby. One of the beautiful things about the really rural areas i work in....
In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :
Ok, do you have a PS4? If so, grab a copy of Dirt (the rally game). It’s fantastic for mental prep. You don’t really know what corner is coming up, and the co pilot calls help your brain acclimate to last minute reaction/decision making. I used it last weekend at the autocross, it really helped with course memorization.
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