What's so bad about early Vipers?

So, I'm considering taking a job that would mean moving from the northeast to Miami/South Beach. And I'm daydreaming about what car I might buy once snow/ice/cold/salt is off the menu.

I've noticed that Vipers from the '90s are available for as little as 30k. Mileage seems to be universally low. I'm surprised to find these are "real" roadsters: no side windows (can this possibly be true?) and ill-fitting tops. Clutches are heavy (so what?). Fuel economy sucks (YOLO).

Besides that, why would you not want one?

IIRC the biggest drawback chassis wise is the rear suspension geometry is somewhat contrary, making it a vehicle you really don't want to push to its limits. I say this only because they made a big deal over fixing this with the GTS and subsequent RT/10s.

Also IIRC the hood was something like $20k when the vehicles were new, and due to being a clamshell design, were easily damaged in any kind of tap forward of the A-pillar. I'd expect they are a lot more expensive today.

And yes, no side windows on the RT/10. Dodge recognized that the car would never be somebody's primary vehicle. In fact, I don't think they were even worried about competing with the Corvette, since they found that most people who bought Vipers already had one or two already.

Some good older threads about it. Basically sounds like they are pretty uncomfortable to drive, between the awkward seating and severe tramlining issues:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/viper/30332/page1/

Klayfish said: As a daily driver? Guess it would depend what your daily commute is like. Personally, I'd give it a big fat NO. I owned a '99 Viper GTS about 4 or 5 years ago. It was the most gorgeous car I've ever owned. I could sit and stare at it forever. Real good power and stuck like glue. Fuel mileage actually wasn't bad. On the highway, it got in the upper 20's while cruising, maybe even 30 (turns about 1400rpm at 80mph). But other than that, the driving experience was not very good. The relationship of the seats and pedals was awful. If I got close enough to be able to reach the gas pedal properly (I'm 5'9") then I was nearly eating the steering wheel and the clutch pedal. If I slid back for the wheel and clutch, I had to stretch for the gas. The shifter location was horrible. The car did get hot inside, but that didn't bother me much. It also tramlined something nasty. It wanted to follow every tiny rut in the road. On a newly paved highway, it was fine. But roads that were crowned or badly pitted, it was a white knuckle ride. Also, be aware of part prices. I haven't kept up with it lately, but the hood itself was phenomenally expensive, as were other body parts. You'll actually find a bunch of them with salvage titles because a minor front end hit often totals the car due to body part prices. Mechanical parts aren't cheap either. Mine had something go wrong with the differential gears, I forget exactly what it was at this point, but it was about $800 just for the part.

The tops have a tendency to self-eject at higher speeds. Also, some of the early engines had issues with core shift in the bores, that would junk the engine.

RT/10's can also be had in the mid-$30s. Still no real windows or tops, though. I could see that sucking in a tropical environment with periods of heavy rain.

I suppose a coupe would fix the problem, but I really don't like them for some reason.

Many have salvage titles due to the hood design mentioned earlier.

I think the biggest show stopper would be the maintenance/repair expenses. Keep in mind that you are talking about a semi-exotic car that is over 20 years old. While I expect that it wouldnt be as dire as say a Ferrari, its going to be much worse than a Corvette.

That said, the drivetrain is understressed in stock form, so you might get lucky and have nothing break. But if it does...

I recall reading that the cabin can become an easy bake oven. This is important in hot, humid FL, though south Florida can be a bit milder than N FL. If you get a soft top, good rain sealing is a must; expect daily afternoon thunderstorms July - September or October.

^^^ I wouldn't have expected the drivetrain to be very costly to maintain since we're talking about a modified truck engine (with relatively low redline) and a T56 transmission.

pointofdeparture wrote: Some good older threads about it. Basically sounds like they are pretty uncomfortable to drive, between the awkward seating and severe tramlining issues: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/viper/30332/page1/

Klayfish said: As a daily driver? Guess it would depend what your daily commute is like. Personally, I'd give it a big fat NO. I owned a '99 Viper GTS about 4 or 5 years ago. It was the most gorgeous car I've ever owned. I could sit and stare at it forever. Real good power and stuck like glue. Fuel mileage actually wasn't bad. On the highway, it got in the upper 20's while cruising, maybe even 30 (turns about 1400rpm at 80mph). But other than that, the driving experience was not very good. The relationship of the seats and pedals was awful. If I got close enough to be able to reach the gas pedal properly (I'm 5'9") then I was nearly eating the steering wheel and the clutch pedal. If I slid back for the wheel and clutch, I had to stretch for the gas. The shifter location was horrible. The car did get hot inside, but that didn't bother me much. It also tramlined something nasty. It wanted to follow every tiny rut in the road. On a newly paved highway, it was fine. But roads that were crowned or badly pitted, it was a white knuckle ride. Also, be aware of part prices. I haven't kept up with it lately, but the hood itself was phenomenally expensive, as were other body parts. You'll actually find a bunch of them with salvage titles because a minor front end hit often totals the car due to body part prices. Mechanical parts aren't cheap either. Mine had something go wrong with the differential gears, I forget exactly what it was at this point, but it was about $800 just for the part.

And it kills me to have to have said that. I so much wanted to love that car, and still have very fond memories of it. It was the sexiest car I've ever had and was just cool. It was fast as hell and was fun to hoon. But I just can't say from a driving fun perspective it was high on the list. It came with a ton of compromises that made the luster wear off after about 30 minutes of driving. Mine was a '99 coupe, which had a lot of improvements over the earlier cars...they were even more of a compromise.

Funny how I say that about the Viper, but loved my FFR Cobra. It had no windows, no heater, no a/c, no top, exhaust that exited at your side. But it was a very different driving experience.

LanEvo wrote: ...we're talking about a modified truck engine (with relatively low redline).

Is this true? I know it's commonly said, but I thought I'd seen a Dodge documentary or something that said the Viper V10 and the truck V10 were so different that the only parts that could be shared were the pushrods, and even those were different materials between the 2. Or something like that. Maybe my memory is just cloudy on the subject.

Only been on a short ride as a passenger around a wet slalom course. Felt no urge to own one after that event. Sills get pretty hot and you feel pretty cramped in what feels like a huge car.

What do you figure a new set of tires is worth?

cramped compartment, heat, and a strong desire to kill you.

Flight Service wrote: cramped compartment, heat, and a strong desire to kill you.

Whole bucket'o'truth here. Most have low mileage because they're miserable to drive and and owners are secretly (rightfully) scared of them.

The problem with the Gen I/II cars is that the Gen III exists. The Gen III is an actual car that you can use every single day if you wish, 10K miles a year no problem as long as you are careful in the rain or choose your tires correctly.

Yes this does not look as good as the Gen II cars but you can get a good one for sub 40K and the motor is darn near indestructible if you leave it stock and it even gets good gas mileage. Plus if you are not a tiny little dude you an actually fit. Maintenance is next to nothing beyond consumables and in a gen 3 800-900hp is just a checkbook away, heck 1200+hp is honestly just a check away if you are nuts.

Apexcarver wrote: I think the biggest show stopper would be the maintenance/repair expenses. Keep in mind that you are talking about a semi-exotic car that is over 20 years old. While I expect that it wouldnt be as dire as say a Ferrari, its going to be much worse than a Corvette. That said, the drivetrain is understressed in stock form, so you might get lucky and have nothing break. But if it does...

Except the powertain is very not exotic. Truck V10 + BW 6 speed.

To go on what Knurled mentioned about it not being a DD- they apparently don't start below 0F, too. Not that it matters in South Beach.

It's not quite a truck V10. The Magnum V10 truck engine was all cast iron and basically the 5.9 V8 with 2 more cylinders tacked on. The Viper engine is similar, but done in all aluminum with some improvements and tweaks and makes more power (around 400hp for the early versions, vs just over 300hp for the highest powered truck V10).

When I worked for Skip Barber in the late 90s, I had to pick up one of our first gen Vipers at a dealer 40 miles away. I was over that car after 5 miles. All the statements about heat, ergonomics, and trying to kill the driver are true.

The tops blow off between 120 and 130mph BTW. Two of my co-workers confirmed that. Seeing them pull up with what looked like the remnants of a berkleyed umbrella in the passenger seat was pretty funny.

rslifkin wrote: It's not quite a truck V10. The Magnum V10 truck engine was all cast iron and basically the 5.9 V8 with 2 more cylinders tacked on. The Viper engine is similar, but done in all aluminum with some improvements and tweaks and makes more power (around 400hp for the early versions, vs just over 300hp for the highest powered truck V10).

The only thing the Viper shares between the truck motor is the size of the bore. Every single other thing has been changed. Not sure where it comes from but Dodge themselves has said that many many times. I think only the very first prototype mule Sada cast block to check spacing.

rslifkin wrote: It's not quite a truck V10. The Magnum V10 truck engine was all cast iron and basically the 5.9 V8 with 2 more cylinders tacked on. The Viper engine is similar, but done in all aluminum with some improvements and tweaks and makes more power (around 400hp for the early versions, vs just over 300hp for the highest powered truck V10).

None of that makes it exotic. Pushrod V10. Big deal.

alfadriver wrote: None of that makes it exotic. Pushrod V10. Big deal.

It's not exotic in its design, but it does suffer from not sharing parts with anything more common.

Exotic or not, it produces a ton of torque.

rslifkin wrote:

alfadriver wrote: None of that makes it exotic. Pushrod V10. Big deal.

It's not exotic in its design, but it does suffer from not sharing parts with anything more common.

Basically, I would not be worried about breaking a rather understressed V10.

Making 400hp from 8.0l, it does it at remarkably low engine speeds.

The first time I drove a Viper, I thought that the tach was broken. The car was pulling like a freight train while the tach was barely climbing.

Drive one and see if it's for you. As others noted, the ergonomics can be a bit challenging--like warm cockpits and no dead pedal.

But it is fast, though.

wearymicrobe wrote:

rslifkin wrote: It's not quite a truck V10. The Magnum V10 truck engine was all cast iron and basically the 5.9 V8 with 2 more cylinders tacked on. The Viper engine is similar, but done in all aluminum with some improvements and tweaks and makes more power (around 400hp for the early versions, vs just over 300hp for the highest powered truck V10).

The only thing the Viper shares between the truck motor is the size of the bore. Every single other thing has been changed. Not sure where it comes from but Dodge themselves has said that many many times. I think only the very first prototype mule Sada cast block to check spacing.

The first mule did have a cast-iron block. When they went to move it to a different site to do dyno'ing, Chrysler engineers said that engine was so heavy it nearly bottomed out the Dakota they were using to move it. The actual final engine development was done by Lamborghini (remember, Chrysler still owned them at that time). The cam in the early cars is actually the 340 Six-Pak cam grind on a V10 blank.