What's the 2018 Challenge Sub Class?

I support the wagon class and have a simple way to identify a wagon as a wagon. 

What was it referred to as in the original brochure? If the manufacturer called it a wagon (or estate), then it's a wagon. If they called it a hatchback, then its a hatchback. Yes, some sport utilities were called wagons and even say so on the registration. If the manufacturer called it a wagon.....

Shooting brakes were 'coach built' for the most part and often based off sportscars, so not a wagon in my opinion.

Car should seat a minimum of 4 people when new (except sedan delivery)

Wagons can have 2 doors, see Pinto, Vega, etc.  I would also agree with sedan delivery bodies.

After what happened in this years truck class, I don't want to put forth the effort to build something without clear rules.

pimpm3 said:

I would say a PT Cruiser is a wagon.  A Cherokee is an SUV.

Is it? I mean, it's the classic wagon shape. Most people who own SUV's don't want to admit it's a lifted station wagon.  It was the technicality that allowed it to compete in the first place with the SCCA, most places classify it as a wagon as long as it's not 4wd.  When lowered, it's a wagon. 

Gearheadotaku said:

After what happened in this years truck class, I don't want to put forth the effort to build something without clear rules.

I would suggest you don't compete in the special class. I don't. 

I would also suggest that the majority of people thought the truck class was a success. 

Make it like a "tough truck" class not because its trucks but because you go all supermoto on it and add jumps and obstacles the vehicles have to be able to go over

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1oD3RJheIk

Andy Neuman said:

4 doors and started life as a wagon if my vote counts. I don’t want to build a cool wagon just to lose to a Miata wagon. 

Agreed. No "created" wagons.  It had to leave the factory as a wagon and called a wagon by the manufacturer. Likely with 4 doors, although if you can find a Pinto or Vega. Hell, even the Volvo 1800ES technically qualifies - Volvo never called it a "shooting brake"... 

Of course, since I have a $600 wagon sitting in my back yard (purchased for an entirely different purpose) that I wouldn't care about chopping up into a Challenge car, my opinion may be a tad biased.

I'd call a Cherokee a wagon, especially when lowered.

Andy Neuman said:

4 doors and started life as a wagon if my vote counts. I don’t want to build a cool wagon just to lose to a Miata wagon. 

Says the guy who built a Q45 pickup! 

(a bit confused...)

I propose that entries for the wagon class should be based on an oem wagon chassis, to include sedan deliveries and shooting brakes, but not hatchbacks or extended roofline hatchbacks, especially if a factory wagon ever existed on that chassis.  SUV chassis'd entries wouldo also be excluded, especially if it is popularly known as an SUV chassis'd vehicle (i.e. Jeep Cherokee).

Or just let anything that has a roof that ends with an angle over 78.5 degrees.

In reply to Gearheadotaku :

Apologies for what happened in the truck class. We built the Miatruck into a truck last year for $2016 and just continued this year... it was added to the truck class by the organizers. I promise we will not attempt to create a MiataWagon next year.

Derick Freese said:

I'd call a Cherokee a wagon, especially when lowered.

No. A Cherokee is an SUV. Always has been, always will be.  To call it anything else is grasping at straws.

And no "registrations loop-holes" either - because those can be all over the place.  My 1990 full-size conversion van was titled in PA as a "station wagon".  I get the feeling the van I'm about to buy is as well, judging by the current license plate.  It's a massive E-350 diesel van.  Whatever the title may say, it sure as hell isn't a station wagon, although I'll gladly pay the lesser annual registration fee in PA.

And that should be the point here: If you have to think up some excuse to call something a wagon, it's not a wagon and not really in the spirit of the (sub)class.

That said, if someone builds a Radio Flyer body on a C4 go-kart, I'd have a hard time not accepting that.

m1sandman said:

In reply to Gearheadotaku :

Apologies for what happened in the truck class. We built the Miatruck into a truck last year for $2016 and just continued this year... it was added to the truck class by the organizers. I promise we will not attempt to create a MiataWagon next year.

You most certainly do not owe an apology to whiners for having built a car completely with the rules of the event. 

Your Miata was SITTING in the Pavilion last year at the Town Hall Meeting when everyone voted "truck" and agreed that chopped cars counted. We talked specifically about it. Pictures of it were put in the magazine and circulated nationally. Anyone that didn't expect to see your car again is delusional. 

Just thinking... "Miata Truck"... wouldn't that be a "Muck"?

I definitely think you should name your creation "Mucky"!  Lol! 

SVreX said:

Andy Neuman said:

4 doors and started life as a wagon if my vote counts. I don’t want to build a cool wagon just to lose to a Miata wagon. 

Says the guy who built a Q45 pickup! 

(a bit confused...)

I knew it qualified going into the event the way the rules were written. I probably would have won the class if I had a water pump and power steering. Looking back I think it encourages people to make a car into whatever class because it gives them a better shot at winning something. I’d like to see the special class cars be won by a car that started life in that category. I’d go as far to say you can chop up your original wagon into anything you like. 

I’m not skilled enough to build a turbo LS car. I can buy the parts for well under budget but I haven’t developed the skills or tools to actually make it happen. Maybe I just need to go hang out at Andrews house more. Then I can become the not quite as fast Andrew from York, PA, instead of the slow Andrew from York, PA. 

Edit: I want to see how fast a wagon can go not how fast a vehicle that resembles a wagon can go. 

Andy Neuman said:

SVreX said:

Andy Neuman said:

4 doors and started life as a wagon if my vote counts. I don’t want to build a cool wagon just to lose to a Miata wagon. 

Says the guy who built a Q45 pickup! 

(a bit confused...)

I knew it qualified going into the event the way the rules were written. I probably would have won the class if I had a water pump and power steering. Looking back I think it encourages people to make a car into whatever class because it gives them a better shot at winning something. I’d like to see the special class cars be won by a car that started life in that category. I’d go as far to say you can chop up your original wagon into anything you like. 

I’m not skilled enough to build a turbo LS car. I can buy the parts for well under budget but I haven’t developed the skills or tools to actually make it happen. Maybe I just need to go hang out at Andrews house more. Then I can become the not quite as fast Andrew from York, PA, instead of the slow Andrew from York, PA. 

I definitely understand this sentiment, but I view it a little more leniently because I built the saab truck with the intention to drive it and use it as a truck after the challenge. I engineered it to be able to sit outside in the rain, or throw heavy/oily/dirty junk in the back, or to have ratchet straps hold large objects in.

In my mind, if you use it like a truck it becomes a real truck. But that is harder with wagon since the 'use' of a wagon is not as clear. If someone buys a miata and converts it into a wagon and takes their entire family on a 5 day road trip with all their stuff and 2 kids facing rearward in the way back seats, then by golly I'd call that a wagon.

I'm a GRM newbie but y'all are the same breed as I so I feel at home with this.  If I was wanting wagon function in a sportier package I'd get a shooting brake, no problem, and feel like I drove a 2 door wagon.  I'd be cool with a Cherokee because it has little advantage over a more traditional wagon if not much worse.  If it didn't start life as a wagon so what, include a rule that you have to make a lap with 2 rear facing passengers at half speed or something to legitimize it's "wagonness".  If we spend 2 weeks making the rules super specific doesnt THAT take the fun out of it?  Just asking because I've got 2 choices right now for build cars and neither are wagons but I'd love to start with a Volvo as it would be my 4th

Re:  wagon vs. hatch.  IIRC, if there’s is a sedan on the same platform, a wagon is usually the same length or longer, while a hatchback tends to be shorter.  I know it’s not always true, but is a bit of a guideline.

I'll pop this thread in here right now (which is why there's a certain resistence to including Cherokee's into wagon class):

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/2010-race-jeep-cherokee-build/27247/page7/

what if I convert a sedan (that didn't have a wagon option) into a wagon?

I mean, this is all *highly* hypothetical on my part... my priorities are in another direction altogether... but, maybe if...

So is a Forester a wagon or an SUV?

jstand said:

So is a Forester a wagon or an SUV?

The Subaru Forester is a compact crossover SUV manufactured since 1997 by Subaru. Available in Japan from 1997, the Forester shares its platform with the Impreza. It has been crowned Motor Trend's 2009 and 2014 SUV of the Year and The Car Connection's Best Car To Buy 2014.[2]

I do like the "Started life as a" rule.  It would have been nice this year to see started life as trucks competing against each other.   They might even come back the next year as improved versions.  I also like the idea of having them meet some tests to qualify.  But I like testing things.   

I think the point of having a truck or wagon class is to have trucks or wagons compete against each other.  (No offense to the converted Miata that did meet this years unlimited rules.)

sleepyhead said:

I'll pop this thread in here right now (which is why there's a certain resistence to including Cherokee's into wagon class):

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/2010-race-jeep-cherokee-build/27247/page7/

This is my last comment on this argument.  again LMFAO.

"According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, a "sport utility vehicle" is "a rugged automotive vehicle similar to a station wagon but built on a light-truck chassis". The "SUV" term is defined as "a large vehicle that is designed to be used on rough surfaces but that is often used on city roads or highways." The "SUV" acronym "is still used to describe nearly anything with available all-wheel drive and raised ground clearance"

In other words, it's marketing. It's a wagon built to ride higher and not be a traditional wagon to those buying them, but is still a wagon. What about the volvo V and XC series? Wagons or SUV's? Dads can drive them without saying they're driving the family station wagon and to moms it's not a mini-van, and it's not a station wagon. Take a 55 chevy wagon, and drop it on a truck frame, is it a SUV, or did someone murder a classic?

The bitch about the XJ is a talented group of people did it, made it work REALLY well and a REALLY talented driver put it at the top of the field. Not only that, they did it with an automatic transmission. No one thought it was a threat till the first time it went around the cones and suddenly holy E36 M3 it can corner too! It's the miata of the wagon world. Smaller, lighter, when modified it corners and accelerates harder than the rest. 

I'm done with this argument, I may just build my own so I can come to the party and laugh at everyone who cries about it not being a wagon. Then again. I likely won't. I'm pretty much done building cars for the challenge. I may come for the party, but this year kind of sealed the deal for me. After being involved with or building a car for the dance for 9 of the last 10 years. I think I'm done.

Echoechoecho ran an ae101 corolla sedan and did ok at autocross. I have a whole year of 400$ corolla daily driver development to ignore and do what he did. Game on!

You could do split class...

Wagon Lite...Under 3000lbs 

Wagon Heavy...Over 3000lbs 

Trying to ignore you all but then I find this,

https://boston.craigslist.org/nos/cto/d/2001-saab-9-5-aero-wagon/6335690141.html

dean1484 said:

Trying to ignore you all but then I find this,

https://boston.craigslist.org/nos/cto/d/2001-saab-9-5-aero-wagon/6335690141.html

then you should definitely not check out the thread I started over here...
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/201x-classifieds/2018-wagon-finds-thread/133923/page1/

that would probably be bad

re:Mr. Lee
the point was, I think there's enough new people around, they might not have seen that... so worthwhile to bring it as "part of the reason", which I probably should have marked "imho".  I give that group all the credit in the world for pulling that off.

if you're having trouble building something for challenge, build something for OneLap!    similar open rules format, larger time/guts commitment.  ymmv.