What's the deal with Harnesses and not having a cage?

I'm getting some race seats for my TT quattro.

I would like a harness so that I can delete the weight of the seatbelt mechinicsm.
But I would also like to skip getting a cage. Simply because it's super expensive and I don't see myself ever actually flipping. Maybe spinning out and hitting a wall sure. but flipping? I'm not doing any wheel to wheel competitive racing, just hpde.

I am looking at these K braces which are basically a half cage without the top part.

Is it still too dangerous to have a harness attached to that K brace?

Or is there some "half harness" that I can get that attaches to the K brace and won't break my neck in a rollover?

Google 'harness bar'.

Short answer is yes, you can attach a harness to that type of setup, as long as the member is properly attached to the car.

You want a 5 or 6-point harness with a proper anti-submarine strap. Four point harnesses actually notorious for resulting in submarining (popping out by sliding from underneath) in heavy front end collisions (like say sliding off the track and hitting a tirewall). Are you removing the front and side impact airbags? If not, I would not consider changing from the 3-point safety belts, instead opt for good side-bolstered sport-oriented seats that can use the factory belts. 

My Schroth 6 point harness is heavier than the factory harness in my e36 M3. I doubt you will save any weight. 

No rollbar + harness and seat = head squished if the car rolls over. 

Also, some places will not let you on track if you have a harness and no roll over protection. 

In reply to Slippery (Forum Supporter) :

This x a million. It's cage and harnesses or nothing at all. 
 

I only autocross my Miata and weekend street drive it, am I worried about a rollover? Hell yes. Steven hawking is a great guy but I don't want to be EXACTLY like him. 

Wouldn't adding a harness bar negate any weight savings from removing seatbelt mechanisms?

EvanB (Forum Supporter) said:

Wouldn't adding a harness bar negate any weight savings from removing seatbelt mechanisms?

yes but chassis stiffening is just something you've got to do. I would put a rearward cage in if it weren't so expensive.

Perhaps there is a way to have a "non-reclining" seatbelt so that I can delete the mechanism?  Similar to how airplane seatbelts work?

Would this be safe for a non-cage race bucket seat?

https://www.wescoperformance.com/3pt-non-retractable-seat-belts-bnch-help.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=63921372661&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6Or_BRC_ARIsAPzuer_MDySYLrmgm6Q1nvrI8mkGcvQ6zfVcYUB3YS1yABU49EN-FgupsFcaApoUEALw_wcB

In reply to Tadope :

It's not something you "have" to do, especially on a chassis as stiff as a TT.

I can't think of any track day organization that will allow you to use a harness without a full roll cage.  Some don't allow racing seats, either, because they really need to be mounted to a cage and 3-point belts don't work well with them. 

If the roof collapses with a harness, you can't fall to the side during the roll.  You're locked in place.  A spinal compression from a hit on the head usually results in you becoming a quadriplegic.    (This is the injury that put Sir Frank Williams in a wheelchair, incidentally - his rental car rolled and landed on the roof)

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

I been on track with a few outfits that would probably not care, like Tracknight in A here doesn't check anything ... but if you many others will. 

Also, no instructor will get in the car with you in a car with a harness and no rollover protection ... unless he is suicidal and then you probably dont want him instructing you. 

Look at the Schroth DOT APPROVED 4 point harnesses with ASM. They are designed for folks who don't want full cage, 5-6 point harnesses, fixed back seats etc. and can be bolt mounted or wrap around style depending on which model belt. I ran then for several years in HPDE, LSR, and at the drags back  15 years ago before I went to full cage, Kirkeys, 6 point Schroth. I did have to explain ASM to safety inspectors at tracks back then but I doubt you'd need to now. This is not new technology while previous comments appear to be based on old safety equipment standards.

https://www.soloperformance.com/Schroth-Rallye-4-ASM_p_1362.html

There's a bunch of Schroth you tube videos of crash testing the ASM harnesses you can watch also.

Where are you located? If in the US and you post your location I am sure someone can recommend a place to get a half cage made. 

A cage cost too much? Dude you bought an Audi TT. It doesn't get much more expensive than that.

In reply to Vajingo :

It's a chop-top Golf, they're not THAT bad.

Very Helpful...

Harness bar will be fine.  Better than a roll bar/cage in a car you will drive on the street.  Having a roll bar in a street car is worse than a harness bar in a HPDE car.  Unless you always wear a helmet on the street, just go with the harness bar.

Many clubs have an all or nothing policy; either full stock or harness, HANS  and bar/cage. Some of them even want you in full gear as well.

If you are going to use a harness & harness bar then you also need to get a head and neck restraint.

Tadope said:

Would this be safe for a non-cage race bucket seat?

https://www.wescoperformance.com/3pt-non-retractable-seat-belts-bnch-help.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=63921372661&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6Or_BRC_ARIsAPzuer_MDySYLrmgm6Q1nvrI8mkGcvQ6zfVcYUB3YS1yABU49EN-FgupsFcaApoUEALw_wcB

I tried some of those exact non-retractable 3pt belts from Wesco in my 280zx.  In short, I didn't like them.  Folks here told me I wouldn't, and they were right!  My biggest gripe was how it worked; the tension was maintained by the top most mount - NOT down where you can easily reach it.  It was OK to tighten, impossible to loosen.  They seemed well made, not complaining about Wesco at all.... they just weren't at all what I expected.  

These threads are becoming very, very predictable.

I want wide, sticky, 265 18" tires but I don't want to spend more than $100 each.

I want a really good suspension but I want to make it out of cheap ebay coilovers.

I want a harness bar but I don't want to deal with the cost of a cage.

Tom1200 said:

Many clubs have an all or nothing policy; either full stock or harness, HANS  and bar/cage. Some of them even want you in full gear as well.

If you are going to use a harness & harness bar then you also need to get a head and neck restraint.

Are they also requiring halo seats with the HANS, to keep your head on the correct side of the helmet bolster in a frontal?

I'm asking for information.  I also remember when everyone was supposed to have in-car nets starting from a few years ago, I hardly ever see those.

Slippery (Forum Supporter) said:

Where are you located? If in the US and you post your location I am sure someone can recommend a place to get a half cage made. 

Yes! i'm in the bay area just south of san francisco (near san jose)!
I would love to get a real half cage that doesn't cost over a grand. Something super simple and un painted would be totally fine! 
Thanks man.

ProDarwin said:

These threads are becoming very, very predictable.

 

I want wide, sticky, 265 18" tires but I don't want to spend more than $100 each.

I want a really good suspension but I want to make it out of cheap ebay coilovers.

I want a harness bar but I don't want to deal with the cost of a cage.

 

 

Why you talking smack? I'm just poor that's all...   shesh.

I don't know of any orgs that require a full cage to use harnesses.  Roll bar ("half cage") yes, but full cage no.  Full cage is incompatible with being a street car (can't drive it without helmet), as are halo seats (can't look over your shoulder).

But yes, using 5/6-point harnesses without at least a roll bar is a bad idea.  No one plans on rolling their car, but it happens.  Sliding sideways off the track into mud that grabs the wheel is the biggest cause.

Vajingo said:

A cage cost too much? Dude you bought an Audi TT. It doesn't get much more expensive than that.

2001 tt man, not a 2020 TTRS  hahah... I literally paid $2500 for it. And you're thinking i bought a $60k car :D  
 

maj75 (Forum Supporter) said:

Very Helpful...

 

Harness bar will be fine.  Better than a roll bar/cage in a car you will drive on the street.  Having a roll bar in a street car is worse than a harness bar in a HPDE car.  Unless you always wear a helmet on the street, just go with the harness bar.

OK THATS ANOTHER PIECE OF INFO.  Whats with the rollcage being bad on the street notion??   Is that about hitting your head on it without a helmet?
I'd assume a half cage that is only in the rear of the car behind the seats has no chance of hitting your head in a crash.
If i'm wrong feel free to inform me!!

Tadope said:

 I don't see myself ever actually flipping. Maybe spinning out and hitting a wall sure. but flipping? I'm not doing any wheel to wheel competitive racing, just hpde.

I find it amazing that you know the trajectory and speed your car will be at going off course . . . and at every turn on every track you may drive at too. Brilliant. Can you tell us what the trajectory and speed of the other car(s) that may make contact with you at every turn on every track you may drive?

You may want to calculate the cost of lifelong care for a quadriplegic.

Tadope said:

ProDarwin said:

These threads are becoming very, very predictable.

 

I want wide, sticky, 265 18" tires but I don't want to spend more than $100 each.

I want a really good suspension but I want to make it out of cheap ebay coilovers.

I want a harness bar but I don't want to deal with the cost of a cage.

 

 

Why you talking smack? I'm just poor that's all...   shesh.

You're doing it all wrong, then.  Look up Freakazoid's thread about tracking a  Malibu.  Starting with a stock car and identifying weaknesses and correcting them or living with them as reality dictates.

That is the way to do it, not blowing $15k before hitting your first lap on preparing a car for which, I hasten to point out, there not only is no money to win, but there isn't even any actual competition.

L5wolvesf said:

Tadope said:

 I don't see myself ever actually flipping. Maybe spinning out and hitting a wall sure. but flipping? I'm not doing any wheel to wheel competitive racing, just hpde.

I find it amazing that you know the trajectory and speed your car will be at going off course . . . and at every turn on every track you may drive at too. Brilliant. Can you tell us what the trajectory and speed of the other car(s) that may make contact with you at every turn on every track you may drive?

 

You may want to calculate the cost of lifelong care for a quadriplegic.

You can roll by sliding off-track at just the right angle into dirt that is just the right softness.

Or you can roll by hooking a curb just right on the INside.  There was a somewhat famous video circulating the Internet about twenty years ago of someone rolling his Legacy 2.5GT this way.  (And because it was a "driver's school", repairing the car was covered by his insurance, although IIRC his policy got non-renewed)