When does it cease being the same car?

Having a dilemma of the heart.

lots of you know about my 1954 Belair.  It’s my first car, and I never intend to get rid of it.  My dilemma is i’ve always wanted it to be 2 things it wasn’t.  A 2 door, and rust free.  Both quarters, all 4 doors, and the panel below the trunk are made of bondo.  The roof is buckled in several spots from probably young stupid me climbing on it when it was just that beat up old car in dad’s barn.  

I’ve come across a rust free southern 2 door version, blasted to bare and primed.  It would take swapping the original shell and doors out for the 2 door shell.  Keeping my original chassis because i pretty much nailed it with the suspension when i put it together.  Reusing original front end, as much of the chrome as possible, the paperwork, the seats, wiring, the dash, the glass, etc from my original shell.  

Financially and logically this makes so much sense.  The 2 door body is less than buying patch panels and having the extra doors i got years ago blasted, and it would save hundreds of hours of bodywork labor, the absolute worst kind of labor.   But is it the same car?  I’m having a hard time talking myself into it still being “my car” 

In my opinion, FWIW, you would be making it into "your car"..  And it would still have the heart of the original.  You would still be riding on fond memories.

I agree with Dirtydog. It doesn't make sense to keep the things you like the least about it. You would be transforming the car you currently own into "your car". Doo eet.

That is always a question when it comes to modifying cars - at what point has the car been changed so much it is no longer the same car?

It's really a personal decision and dependent on your own goals. 

Is NOHOME's Molvo really an 1800ES anymore or just V8 Miata wrapped in a different body?  Project Binky may be similar - an AWD Celica wrapped with a Mini body. 

In reply to Patrick :

I agree,  the frame suspension running gear etc are all “ yours” You can keep the interior bumpers etc.  and etc. 

Weight percentage you are keeping 75% of your car and getting rid of the undesirable parts of your car you don’t like.   If you really want to keep the old rusty bits until common sense dope slaps you and you can haul them to the recycle yard to become a few new fenders 

All in favor say Aye!  

It is the same car if you say it is.  If you say it is often enough, you will eventually believe it.

It will depend on the title laws where you live.  Does the title go with the serial number on the chassis or the serial number on the body?

That's a question as old as old as the Greeks.   https://yandoo.wordpress.com/2013/08/17/theseuss-paradox/

In reply to Patrick :

It sounds like you’re concerned about “abandoning” the history & heritage of the exiting body, so set it the back yard & let the kids climb all over it just like you did, and use the southern 2-door shell to build the car you want. 

People in "the hobby" are building "authentic original" cars out of number plates and year one chassis(es). My first Fairmont, a 1 of 54 original 302/4-speed 2-door sedan, is a complete rust bucket. I fully intend to do a body swap restoration, and it will be the same car to me. My brother disagrees, but thinks that I should cut the good parts out of the good body, and weld them to the original one. 

As long as there is continuity to the history, then it is the "Same Car".  And by "same car" I mean "Your car".

Think of yourself in the distant future sitting around the campfire with the great grandkids and saying " let me tell you the history of me and that old Belair".  The tub swap would just be a chapter in a story that leads back to the day it choose you as its curator. So go ahead and tub-swap the Belair since it seems like the best bet to ensure that the story stays interesting.

The Molvo? It's meant to be an enigma. It is rare that we refer to it as the Volvo anymore since it has mentally become the MOLVO and those that are not in the know are left to figure it out.

Pete

wae said:

That's a question as old as old as the Greeks.   https://yandoo.wordpress.com/2013/08/17/theseuss-paradox/

 

I think that any paradox should be defined by what the individual takes out of it.

This morning after breakfast, I turned on the Formula 1 race. I watched the pre-race grid walk and the start. There was a wreck on the first lap and the Safety Car came out. While they cleaned up the track, I started looking at my phone. At some point, I noticed that they were racing again. I watched it up to about lap 44 and then I went upstairs to take a shower. When I came back down, Hamilton was about ten seconds from crossing the finish line.

Did I watch the Formula 1 race? I saw the start and the finish, and most of what happened in between (define "most"; quantity? quality? something else?).

But did I "Watch the Race"? I guess so. I feel like I did. Am I satisfied with my Formula 1 experience for the day? Sure...okay.

Well, i am now bidding on the 2 door shell.  I’m hoping the lack of paperwork keeps the price down.  I’m not concerned with that.  

In reply to Patrick :

Goof choice. 

Snailmont nailed it. This is a body swap of the same car. It would be the same car if you swapped the skin over to something else (a-la Molvo). It would be the same car if you had to weld the back half of another car on it. 

Please feel free to justify in any way you like, just make yourself happy.

Google result for VIN Swap:

If they can pull a crushed P-38 out of 200 feet of Greenland ice, rebuild/replace damn near everything, and still call it the same P-38, why can't you do the the same with the 54? 

Just look at it like the English do...."it's the same car, it's just been reshelled".

In reply to NOHOME :

Exactly!

wae said:

That's a question as old as old as the Greeks.   https://yandoo.wordpress.com/2013/08/17/theseuss-paradox/

 

Good reference, I thought of the ship of Theseus as soon as I saw the title. 

I vote for the body replacement, too.

Jerry Seinfeld paid $3.6 million for a Porsche that won Daytona 24hr in 1968.  The only parts that were in that race are a bit of chassis tubing with the serial number and the original rear plexiglass window.  The rest was replicated in the 1990s and scrounged parts from other cars.  The car is now being reconstructed again.  So, providing everyone agrees that the emperor's new clothes look good...

In reality, it's only original once and it sounds like rust has already taken away a large portion of the car and it's not really what you want anyway.  Buy the new one and use what you can from the old one and given it the honor of being a selfless organ donor.

It’s already far from original.  The frame rails are as is most of the body.  Nothing electrical or mechanical is except the speedometer.  It has a small block, th350, 10 bolt rear, and i’ve been itching to turbo ls swap it because of the acreage under the hood.  

Patrick said:

It’s already far from original.  The frame rails are as is most of the body.  Nothing electrical or mechanical is except the speedometer.  It has a small block, th350, 10 bolt rear, and i’ve been itching to turbo ls swap it because of the acreage under the hood.  

And it will make a great build thread!

You have heard the story of the duster, also my first car.

Its finally becoming what i always wanted it to be. The only parts left fromwhen i got it is the rood, passengers side door, and front framework. Its still the same car, but not. The memories remain of its previous versions, but each new version builds its own.

I have had this issue and I am not sure this is going to make sense but it is about the feel of the car. Is the soul of the car still there. 

dean1484 said:

I have had this issue and I am not sure this is going to make sense but it is about the feel of the car. Is the soul of the car still there. 

This is most certainly true!

Same truck? I like to think so. The only pice of metal that hasn't been replaced or modified in some way is the wiper cowl. It is still the same truck, my truck.

I can even go a step further:

I bought this frame and fork several years ago during a nostalgic eBay trip. It is the same year(single year paint schemes) as the bike I bought at age 14 with yard mowing money. Serial number is only a couple off from my old paperwork. I built the 'new' F/F up with all the parts I wanted as a 15yo and couldn't afford. I bought nice used parts and assembled it as a survivor quality build with a couple NOS bits.

It hangs on the wall in my shop; still 'my bike' from my teenage years.