Which car next? E36? GC8? 951?

Alright guys I'm torn.

I purchased an '89 Formula a couple years ago to use as a track car, did a T56 swap, added a Canton pan, 80% of a big brake kit purchased, and have some Firehawk wheels with BFG Comp TA's.  Now I've gotten to the point with it that I'm having second thoughts about tracking it.  

I'm toying with the Idea of picking up another car that's a little more reliable, complete, and with cheaper consumables. My current DD is a 500hp Cummins diesel and it can be a little tiring to drive. It pulls my trailer and camper well but beats me near to death. So I'd like to find something to track on a budget and pull double duty as a daily.

I owned and sold a 2001 GC8 2.5 RS a couple years ago. It handled great, was awesome in the winter, parts were cheap...But the head gaskets leaked oil, it had no power, quarters were rusting, CV's were near junk. I had a bittersweet relationship with the car. It's really a car that can do it all and be upgraded to whatever you want it to be. But they are hard to find in decent condition, most are pretty well beat, rusted out, and over zealously priced. In stock form the car had me wanting for more and feeling like a ricer. But I can't shake the fact that I could DD it all year, was great on fuel and could also be fun offroad at some Rally Xs. 

So while perusing FB classifieds for an Impreza I stumbled on a couple E36 chassis M3's for around $5-6k. To my astonishment both offered some nice aftermarket suspension (H&R and Bilstein) and several other tasteful mods already done. One was already set to go with a roll bar, seats, and harnesses. They seem to be surprisingly a much better bargain than the Imprezas and offer a lot more out of the box, but had very high mileage. Like 200k high, but presented well with no rust or dents. I really dig the look and sound of them. I guess I could soldier on through the winters with my truck and forego the AWD. They are a great track car and a comfortable DD.

So the favor seems to lean towards the E36 so far. But then if I'm going for RWD and can fall back on the truck why not a Porsche 951? An A4 would also be a great choice with comfort and AWD, but bland appearing and not as great on track.

So what would you do if you were me? And please don't answer Miata.

A 951 track car will put you in the poor house or you’ll never be on the track.

Keep it stock and stay on top of the maintenance and you’d stand a better chance.  Modify it at all and all bets are off and they are stupid easy to modify.

Heat management is crucial.  So lots of oil and water cooling with a transaxle oil cooler.

I had an E36 M3 that I drove all year just fine in Idaho. Put snow tires on 7.5 rims and it was great!

M3..

I'm just curious, what's changing your mind about tracking the Formula? 

M3 all day long. I've owned Imprezas and they are cute and quirky but not great track cars without boostage and boost drives up the costs quickly. Porsche is an exotic car with exotic repair prices no matter how reliable they are. Audis are going to be far, far less reliable than a BMW 3 series. There is a reason old Audis are so cheap.

High miles on a E36 M3 probably don't matter. Just look for carefully maintained. Cooling system upgrade probably is the most important. Mine has an aluminum radiator, Samco hoses, etc.  They need good motor mounts too. The HP/dollar ratio is about as good as you can get without going V8 and the latter will consume way more in tires, brakes and clutches than the relatively light BMW. Parts are everywhere and generally not expensive. Generally. I bought a fully tricked out TT car missing only harnesses and a roll bar for $7500. At that price point a 'plain' E36 doesn't make much sense as it will cost nearly that to turn it into something that still won't be a M3. They are the bargain car right now but won't be for long. I predict these will soon go up in value like E30s have started to.

How about a Pontiac Firebird?

I had a E36 M3 sedan for a few years, it was an awesome daily and I drove through a few winters with snows.  In 2010 it was like $7000 for a 150k mile example with a few nice mods.  Never got to track it but they do great out there.  I had most of the common annoying issues like brake sensor going out, headliner dropped, cluster died. eventually actually I had some weird problem with the factory alarm system and the car wouldn't start, I didn't have time to deal with this and so I sold it.  But if you are reasonably handy and you're not an intern working 80 hours a week at the hospital you could probably keep one together no problem.  

On the other hand, while I have never owned an Impreza, I have always thought that a GC of some flavor would be a lot of fun for a winter Runabout, rallycross, Etc.  But stock EJ25 is pretty weak and turbo swaps get expensive quick.  And none of the USDM Motors really impressed me either, my wife had a Forester XT with a turbo ej25 which blew up despite pretty fastidious maintenance.  GC and EJ207 I could get behind though...

BTW, the 944 Chassis is a great one with excellent balance and feel.

Its just that the boosted 2.5L can be expensive to manage for a track day car.

Now.  Replace the 4 with an LSx and you've got a much less stressed engine that is cheaper to maintain in an excellent chassis that uses less expensive wear items.

Cooling is still an issue with the V8, but the kits from Texas Performance Concepts provide proper radiators and you can add an oil cooler pretty easily.

Venting the hood isn't a bad solution for a track car in either case.

The versatility of the hatchback really helps, plus pop-ups are pretty cool.

Buy a JDM GC8 lol. They actually are not that bad in terms of price at all if you go closest to the source as you can. (ie. pacific coast auto)

If you are thinking of 951 at all you probably want something tunable with power. If you are looking for track cars and 944s you might want to look at S chassis Nissans as well and see if you can luck out and find a good/inexpensive one. They still exist. 

Japanese versions of cars sold here are good for the track as well. 1JZ toyotas like the Toyota Soarer or JZA70 Supra are a good choice. GC8 and those work for the track because all the parts are easily sourced locally. The engines also have plentiful parts as well because they are common swaps. 

I made the mistake of buying a R32 Skyline as a track car. Drivetrain parts plentiful everywhere, chassis parts are non existent. 

Me I am trying to move away from turbos on a track car. 951 would spell trouble IMO and would need mods to be acceptable to me because 80s turbo lag is annoying and 951 has BAD lag. Someone seemed to say you should get a 944 and LS swap it lol. I would love to do that. 

In reply to Stefan :

Totally disagree.  I've been down that road, specifically.  It's long, arduous, frustrating and expensive.  There's NO way I'd LSx swap a 951 again as a track car.

docwyte said:

In reply to Stefan :

Totally disagree.  I've been down that road, specifically.  It's long, arduous, frustrating and expensive.  There's NO way I'd LSx swap a 951 again as a track car.

I should state that it also depends on the tracks you run, how much motor you run and how much of the work you do yourself versus a mechanic.

How aggressive are you as a driver?  Fro track days, the answer shouldn't be "very" as you don't win anything at track days, you can definitely lose at it though.

On a track like Portland, with a mild 4.8L, you'd do just fine as there are many V8 swapped RX-7's and 944's running track days here without major issue.

If you run a more wide open track like Road Atlanta or Texas, etc. then you'll want to spend a lot more time with aero, cooling and refreshing the drivetrain due to the amount of time you spend at WOT and near top speed will make a dramatic difference.

These are the variables that get missed in these discussions and go a long way towards how much time and expense you invest in a swap.

There was a member here with a turbocharged Miata that laid out the effort he needed to put out to deal with heat and longevity for his car when he went from 230 to 250hp.

BMW doesn't really make sports cars, but they make these great 3-series coupes and sedans that also drive like an absolute blast at the track.

The E36s are getting old enough that they will need some love in the cooling, VANOS, and bushings department but they will respond well to it.  They are still completely owner-serviceable.  Also, mine seems to get better with each aftermarket suspension part I install.

It's not a slow track car by any means, but by modern terms it's down on HP and it won't run at the front vs. their stuff from ten years ago.  If one cares.

I found my E36 chassis was also a good candidate for SBF or LS motor swaps, PROVIDED I was able to do the work myself so I can trouble-shoot it as part of the "ownership experience."  I did mine as an SBF, and after many HPDE and open track weekends, it has never failed to pit in under it's own power or sent me home early.  But it has sent me to the pits for a couple hours here and there.

Ive only had our E36 318is for a few weeks, and i was never really a BMW guy due to the horror stories,  but i gotta say from the little bit that ive driven this very tired 213k mile 1995, its going to be very fun. Parts cost havent blown me away yet. Its been pretty easy to work on. 

Also the trade in value of mine books at approx 700$. Private sale value like 1200$ or something silly like that. When i think of those prices i am really amazed at how great of a car you can get for that little $. But the “drift is life” kids here have taken a shine to them so expect that market to be blown up like the current older Japanese car market. Id still love a 240sx but they are so overpriced its ridiculous. Get a nice E36 and a parts car while the getting is good. 

Thanks for the feedback guys. Ya'll have pretty much reaffirmed my same thoughts on the matter. Seems like the E36 is the solid choice.

In response to the "Why not the Firebird?"

The Formula requires a ton of work to make it reliable just yet. The T56 for example needs pulled again as it keeps rejecting and popping out of 3rd gear. I'm thinking a bent shift fork.

I also want to go nuts with it and build a serious motor and repaint it. Which means it will be in pieces for some time. 

I'm looking for something that is a little more turn key at the moment that may just require minor maintenance. I just built the Formula from two cars, so I really don't want to take on a motor swap either.

In reply to Stefan :

The Pacific Northwest is about a dramatic environmental change as you'll get from where I am, which is high altitude, desert.  A car that has no cooling issues near you will melt down here.  They'll have temperature issues in Texas too, although they won't have to fight the altitude.

The LS is a big motor for the very narrow engine bay of the 944, plus the car has a very small frontal area.  Keeping it cool was a major struggle.  If you're building one of these as a track car, you're not going to tool around the track, you're going to be hammering it.  As such, it has to be able to take it.

Yes, my environment was particularly harsh but I don't feel the 944 is a good swap candidate based on the size of the bay, what you have to do to the brakes, the fact you can't run the T56, etc that you don't deal with in other chassis like the E36, FD RX7, 240SX, etc, etc.