Which of these cars do I completely avoid - which do I investigate? FRS/Fiesta ST/E36 content

Edit: after recalculating my budget with some extra windfalls and gifts I actually with have ~$12,400 in total discretionary income which i am perfectly content spending all on a car and associated costs and consumables. But this includes 300 in registration fees and 6.25% tax based on FMV

So I'm once again back in the market, this time with a $2,000 higher budget due to some niceties on rent from my parents. Now up to 10,000 for the car and any registration, taxes, fees, gas, tires, consumables, maintenance, and repairs until next winter break when I come back from school and will work for the break. Thus, I've budgeted that extra $2000 for all the consumables, gas, and other costs leaving me $8,000.

I also have a lot more information on what I like - specifically smaller cars with a lot more feedback, noise, information, etc. 

So far I've test driven - in order of my rankings - FR-S (by MILES), fiesta ST, e36 3 series, first gen honda fit, r53 cooper S, 8th gen civic SI tied with EK civic coupe, golf gti, golf r32, e92 325i, E46 325, 8th gen base civic. 

Hence, I'm looking at my top 3. I've found these cars for sale and I'm struggling to decide which are good to look at and which aren't. At my price range I have noticed that I must make some compromises in one of the areas mileage, condition, age, or title status. However, I'm not experienced enough to know which of these areas is ok to compromise on besides the fact that I don't really care about condition - give me a ripped interior, no clear coat, and dents in every panel if it reduces the price. So what do you guys think of these cars. Which is worthy of considering and which should I flat our run away from?

FR-Ss:

• 2014 FR-S - $6,800 - 192,000 miles - Rebuilt Title - French Settlement LA
• 2013 FR-S - $6,800 - 167,000 miles - Rebuilt Title - Inman, SC
• 2013 FR-S - $7,600 - 190,000 miles - Clean Title - Pawtucket RI - Needs brakes and battery
• 2013 FR-S - $7,650 - 180,000 miles - Clean Title - Pompano Beach FL - Inauspicious mods (wheels) but has headers already installed, pretty far away
• 2013 FR-S - $7,900 - 93,000 miles with 50,000 on engine swap - Clean Title - Franklin Park IL (near me) - not the most auspicious history or mods (smoked headlights), but sold by JDM parts importer
• 2014 FR-S - $7,900 - 140,000 miles - Clean Title - Anaheim CA - really far away
• 2013 FR-S - $8,500 (talk down to 8 or less?) - 128,000 miles - Clean Title - Lynn Haven FL - Inauspicious mods (wheels and coilovers)
• 2013 FR-S - $8,500 (talk down to 8 or less?) - 176,000 miles - Clean Title - Princeton Texas - Great Condition
• 2016 FR-S - $9,000 (way over budget - talk down to 8?) - 100,000 miles with 50,000 on engine swap - Rebuilt Title (for engine failure??), Louisville KY - Nicest condition but rebuilt title and very expensive

I've seen some nicer or cheaper ones farther away, but that would mean taking another day off work, more for the gas to drive back, and a motel room. 

FiSTs:

• 2015 FiST - $6,000 - 160,000 miles - Clean Title - Seymour IN (near me) - needs fuel vapor canister purge valve (comes with), has a shady seller who told me that the car had a message on the screen saying "anti-theft system is activated" and then when I asked for a picture took three days to send one and then the picture showed a message saying "key outside car." Makes me wonder if it's stolen?
• 2014 FiST - $7,000 - 167,000 miles - Clean Title - Brooklyn NY - Seller claims no rust - lovely color
• 2014 FiST - $7,000 - 170,000 miles - Clean Titile - Berkeley Springs WV - "stage 1" mods
• 2014 FiST - $7,000 - 114,000 miles - Rebuilt Title - Crosby TX - Great color and wheels
• 2014 FiST - $7,000 - 90,000 miles - Clean Title - Houston TX - Radar scanner may indicate unscrupulous seller
• 2014 FiST - $7,000 - 160,000 miles with 110,000 on engine - Clean Title - Weatherford TX
• 2014 FiST - $2900 (maybe listed for OBO? seems low) - 80,000 Miles - Rebuilt (CA) Title - Lagrangeville NY - "stage 2" mods

318 TIs:

• 1996 318TI - $3,500 - 156,000 miles - Clean Title - Chicago IL (my city) - Welded diff and hard mounts may indicate more juvenile owner
• 1997 318TI - $4,000 - 157,000 miles - Clean Titile - Cumberland MD 
• 1996 318TI - $5,500 - 180,000 miles - Clean Title - Kansas City MO - very very clean
• 1998 318TI - $6,300 - 134,000 miles - Clean Title - Boonton NJ - According to seller "comes with complete 6 cilynder swap and new turbos"
• 1995 318TI - $7,000 - 76,000 miles - Clean Title - Chippewa Falls WI - Enthusiast owner with tons of autocross mods and maintenance, amazing condition, LSD

Following this thread. I'm kind of in the same boat, but I've got a list of 350z instead of BMWs. 

I don't know dude, I see lots of salvage title cars, shady sellers questionable mods.  I wouldn't touch an FRS in your position unless it was the little old lady's car... I know you love them but don't put yourself in a bad spot.  The FiST is a great car, but you need a super clean one.  The BMW is a 30 year old car, not a path you want to go down.

I totally understand where you're coming from, at the same time you need to get a car you can count on.  Grab a good Honda and go have fun. 

Stay away from salvage titles unless you are a mechanic and it is for a track car. 
 

I like the 318ti list. $7k with 76000 and a lsd.  Nice. 1998 might have side air bags which is a plus. But to previous post they are old cars not rocket ships. If you are ok with that learn away.

What it comes down to is you're scraping the bottom of the barrel for a car you like.  Drop it down to a car that you can get a clean sample for money you have 

You avoid them all and buy my 2006 330i with 199K miles. 6-speed, RWD. All new suspension, great records, no wrecks. Good tires with little mileage, and throw in the roof rack if you want it (it's awesome). Some minor things to keep you busy. GRM price of $4500. One of these days I'll finally get some real pics and post it for sale officially. I'm in South Carolina, but between GRM and love of a road trip I bet I can get it to you.

Coming in here to say SKJSS speaks my mind yet again concerning your search. 

I'll pick out one of each model that looks like a good deal:

2013 FR-S - $7,900 - 93,000 miles with 50,000 on engine swap - Clean Title - Franklin Park IL: This one isn't the prettiest but it has relatively low miles on the chassis and a fairly fresh engine. Repaint all the not-orange body parts to orange, maybe peel the tint off the lights and it will look a lot classier.

2014 FiST - $7,000 - 170,000 miles - Clean Titile - Berkeley Springs WV: Looks like it's in good shape, lotta miles though...the "stage 2" modded one is intriguing but doesn't have a clean title and has a bit of rust visible in the underbody pics.

1995 318TI - $7,000 - 76,000 miles - Clean Title - Chippewa Falls WI: Good shape, good mods, fair price, good deal.

In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) and CyberEric :

You're right of course, in the most pragmatic sense. It's weird because I can't accept not having my dream car as a first car but when these attainable dreams are so close and so cheap it makes it really hard to see the risks. 

The question is - how bad of a decision is it. I don't want to end up in a situation where I can't afford to drive or fix it (big failures, blown engines, trans, rod knock, etc), but if I willing to accept worse condition and a bit more risk for the possibility of getting my dream would that possibly make it less bad of a deal. 

Realistically, what are the odds of these bottom of the barrel cars destroying my finances. For example I've read that the 4 cylinder e36s are some of the most reliable and cheaper to work on bmws. And 2 of the 318tis I found look to be in incredible shape (and it's still faster than a Honda fit which I loved). I've heard good things about FiST reliability even at high miles and a lot of them have clean titles and such. And the FRS seems the most risky but if it all checks out in an inspection, or for example has a new engine what are the odds of a disaster. 

If I'm willing to accept worse condition or a bit more risk what are the realistic odds of it going bad for me if I buy one of my top three test drive cars? Does that make sense? Is my teenage naivete and impulsivity clouding me judgement? I truly value your opinion but my lovelust for the cars might be driving me astray 

Also, how much more budget would I need for one of these that I love? 2k more? 4k more?

In reply to GTwannaB :

Salvage or rebuilt (or both)?

That 318ti looks really nice for the price. Impeccably maintained, clean, already modified, and LSD. I loved the Honda fit and this has a better power to weight ration so I'm definitely not afraid of the slow factor. Plus slow car fast and all that

In reply to bbbbRASS :

That's actually really tempting and has me torn. On the one hand I test drove and e92 325i and while I loved the precision and power, it felt much more isolated and comfy cruiser than something like a Honda fit or frs or FiST. Plus parts are expensive. the other hand that's a screaming deal with GRM member history. And my mom loves it lol

What's the catch because that strikes me as really cheap?

In reply to GameboyRMH :

So the majority opinion on here is not to scrape the bottom of the barrel for these cars. What's your contrasting opinion. 

For the orange one, is the new engine a scary thing? What kind of things should I look for. 

For the FiST - it's got similar miles to the stage 2 one. I've read about them lasting pretty high - what should I be scared of

Lastly for the 318ti - it looks like the nicest condition car of all of these. Most pragmatic decision?

For the orange FRS, the engine has enough miles on it that if it looks good currently, it shouldn't have any surprise failures in store. You should just check the usual Toyobaru trouble spots, that includes figuring out the year of the engine since that could include the leaky cam cover, early CoP modules or possibly even pre-recall valve springs. If you're lucky the engine might be a 2017 or later.

Here's an article listing some of the Fiesta ST's weak spots to check for: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/tech-tips-201418-ford-fiesta-st/

The track-modded 318ti does look like the safest and most pragmatic decision, there are some tips on things to check here:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/tech-tips-e36-chassis-bmw-m3/

From the mods on that one it looks like the main thing to check for will be rear subframe tearing.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Thank you! I am having a really difficult time making a decision with the compromise between driving enjoyment, price and saving money, reliability/ maintenance cost, etc so this will help. I also may look at the ones that are nearby and see if anything calls out to me as being a right car. Or maybe I hit the easy button, grab the e90 posted in this thread, and buy an FR-S in a couple years during college. 

In terms of the 318ti - I was under the impression they didn't have the subframe issues on account of the e30 suspension. I like the 318ti, and it seems like a pragmatic decision, but the e36 I drove didn't feel as nimble or connected as the frs that I drove. Better steering though. The much smaller/lighter 318ti might close that gap at the expense of a worse rear suspension. My one difficult in the decision making is that if I'm spending 7k already, why wouldnt I stretch another 900 for an FR-S. In that vein of thinking the 318ti would be a better decision for me if it was cheaper - what do you thinking of the one in KC (with the fun interior). 

The orange FR-S has been for sale for 19 weeks. Is this a bad sign (other people didnt want it) or just means I have more negotiating power?

In reply to Evanuel9 :

It is more of a family car. It can hold 4 grown men and luggage. But it's the best engine combo of power and reliability BMW made, good steering feel; and you can legit turn off traction control and hang out the tail whenever you want. 
 

If I sell it public I'll list it for $6k. I got a Tesla last June and have hardly driven the bmw since. I hate that's it's just sitting. The headliner is sagging, sunroof cover liner came off, the stereo screen only displays when it's under 50 degrees, currently the audio isn't working because of a mostloop issue (need to find the lose fibre cable and reconnect), there is a vampire drain that is no problem when daily driving but empties the battery when it sits for several days (I keep it on a maintainer and the battery is only a month old), and I haven't gotten around to replacing the valve cover gasket. It has the typical slight oil leak. I have the gasket, just not the motivation. Oh, and the washer fluid tank has a crack so you can only fill it 1/2. And after replacing all shocks, struts, and bump stops there is a clunk in the front going over large bumps. Haven't figured that out yet. One of the aftermarket drls stopped working. It is less than perfect cosmetically. There are a few other guys on the board local to me I'm happy to let check it out for you. 
 

seriously it's a great car and if I hadn't gone electric I wouldn't be moving on from it. It may be larger than what you want, but I think it's a way better option than a salvage title or rust bucket. 
 

I see you are near Chicago. I could for sure get it to Bloomington IN if you want to go for it. But... make sure your mom knows it is RWD. It actually handles great in the snow because of good weight distribution and being able to start in 2nd. Snow tires would be a good option if you are really driving in the winter. (I grew up near Erie PA and we just wouldn't drive when it was really bad)

The FRS does look like a better value in terms of mod potential and possibly initial performance (I suspect that with all those mods the 318ti will have better cornering, but the FRS will have much better straight-line performance and has plenty of potential for even better cornering with mods), the downside is that the FRS will need about another $1k in engine mods to be track-ready and then the risk of engine failure will be lurking in the background as you give those mods a trial by fire on track. With the 318ti you don't need to worry about any of that. Also insurance on the 318ti should be a fraction of a Toyobaru's, and with less power it will also be easier on brakes and tires.

I don't know if the 318ti uses a different subframe from the E36 sedans, if so then that may not be a concern.

The 318ti in KC is in good shape but doesn't seem to be quite as good of a deal as the modded one in WI, for another $1500 the mods are definitely worth it, plus it has much lower miles.

Edit: In terms of being for sale for a long time I wouldn't worry too much about it, use that to negotiate the price down. Its looks are probably scaring away a lot of buyers.

Evanuel9 said:

In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) and CyberEric :

The question is - how bad of a decision is it. 

Realistically, what are the odds of these bottom of the barrel cars destroying my finances

And the FRS seems the most risky but if it all checks out in an inspection, or for example has a new engine what are the odds of a disaster. 

If I'm willing to accept worse condition or a bit more risk what are the realistic odds of it going bad for me if I buy one of my top three test drive cars?

 Is my teenage naivete and impulsivity clouding me judgement?

I truly value your opinion but my lovelust for the cars might be driving me astray 

Also, how much more budget would I need for one of these that I love? 2k more? 4k more?

Bad

High

High

High

Yes

Yes, it is

I'd say at least $4k

You can try to rationalize it to death, which I get it.  At the end of the day there's a reason they are bottom of the barrel cars and why they haven't sold.  I've bought bottom barrel cars before.  You're just not in a position to care for one.  The E36 is a fabulous car, but it's old, very old.  An old BMW is going to cost you.  I know it's hard to believe but I'd bet you'd be quiet happy with a good Fit or tC or Celica or Civic or Mazda

I have some experience with 318tis.  The reddish/purple one looks like it is in good condition but there are a couple of red flags.  It comes with a 3.73 ratio diff which might mean 4500rpm at highway speeds.  An even higher geared welded diff suggests some time on a skid pad too.  Due to the medium case swap, you can't just pull a small case diff out of a junkyard for $300.

Find a picture of the spare tire mount on these things and use it while negotiating if they are missing.  Don't buy one with an oil pan gasket leak or a rear main seal leak unless you can negotiate the price down significantly ($1k each at a shop and a big pain without a lift).

The regular e36 318i has the same motor as the compact with better rear suspension.  There is no chance of tearing the rear subframe because it also has 7 ft/lbs of torque.  The z3 has the same design as the compact and occasionally comes up for sale in budget.  If you park it outside, you might need to find room in the budget for a hardtop though.

I like the black ti in Kansas City at first glance.  It might be worth a trip if you can get more pictures.  I think the Scarlet O'Hara job on the headliner adds to the charm.

2012 w/108k @ $4.8k

or, 50% cheaper for 50% less miles but admittedly only 80% of the car you want but I think it presents a value. Also reasonably local to you and likely easy parental approval 

Another one of these

Don't buy a worn out car at a price you can barely afford and then can not afford to maintain.   

Put me in with the Klayfish way of thinking. 

Q: You know what car is the most fun on track?

A: The one that doesn't break down and stays out on the track!

Owning a "cool car" that you can not drive,  is not, cool

CyberEric said:

Coming in here to say SKJSS speaks my mind yet again concerning your search. 

 

Steve's a smart guy. 

What you SHOULD do is find whatever fun car Steve is selling this week (he somehow always has a Porsche for sale ) and just buy that. 

John Welsh said:

Owning a "cool car" that you can not drive,  is not, cool

I feel targeted.

John Welsh said:

2012 w/108k @ $4.8k

or, 50% cheaper for 50% less miles but admittedly only 80% of the car you want but I think it presents a value. Also reasonably local to you and likely easy parental approval 

Another one of these

Don't buy a worn out car at a price you can barely afford and then can not afford to maintain.   

Put me in with the Klayfish way of thinking. 

 

Q: You know what car is the most fun on track?

A: The one that doesn't break down and stays out on the track!

 

Owning a "cool car" that you can not drive,  is not, cool

 

every ounce of this. But, I was once young and stupid and completely ignored those that actually knew better too so I'm not going to even bother with a response. You've already made up your mind that you have to have a cool car even though you can't afford it. The only way you will learn is to do it, lose your ass and go back to riding your bike everywhere. 

Reminds me of a really good friend of mine. He wanted a super fast mustang, but he couldn't afford a second vehicle. So he spends $5k building a 12:1 351 Windsor with a cam that had more lift than the elevators in the empire state building. When it was constantly needing something (usually transmissions) and requiring $6/ gallon gas (when regular was $1.40) to keep it from knocking to death he finally figured out that maybe those people telling him to back off on some of that was probably smart. That engine is still sitting in his garage, been in there now for 15 years or more. 

I took a chance on a rebuilt title 2014 BRZ, but it was someone here selling it.  ;)

I can only speak to the FiST because I had one, so here goes.  I got less than your budget for mine when I traded it in, and it had around 50,000 miles on it. Mine also had an LSD, Eibach bars front and rear, coil-overs, intake, tune, motor mounts, and a bunch of other stuff. The only issue was that the rear wheel well arches were just starting to bubble.  My point being, someone got my car which was much improved over stock for not much money. The cars you are seeing seem overpriced for the miles. 

84K miles for $13K - https://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/ctd/d/smock-ford-fiesta/7720842703.html

65K miles for $14K https://harrisburg.craigslist.org/ctd/d/carlisle-2016-ford-fiesta-st-one-owner/7724950211.html

116K miles for $10.5 https://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/ctd/d/smock-ford-fiesta/7720842767.html

69k miles for $11k https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1061432721628150/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Ad76826ca-92b6-417f-b166-940491c371d7

66K miles for $10.5 https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1614394386021400/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Ad76826ca-92b6-417f-b166-940491c371d7

96K miles for $7950 https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1614394386021400/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Ad76826ca-92b6-417f-b166-940491c371d7

45K miles for $11 https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1614394386021400/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Ad76826ca-92b6-417f-b166-940491c371d7

79K for $10.5 https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/321905527399866/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Ad76826ca-92b6-417f-b166-940491c371d7

I have friends with Fiestas that have been beaten upon and abused daily and are still going strong at over 100,000 miles. The engine and chassis are tough and reliable, understanding that it is an economy car at the end of the day and northern cars deal with rust like anything else.  The plus side is that parts are pretty cheap. 

The BRz is an amazing chassis, but not as practical as a 4-door hatch. It took little to hit 300ft/lb of torque to the wheels in the FiST, something you will miss driving around with only 120 or so in a twin. 

FWIW, I bought a Saab 9-3 with 185,000 miles for under $1k from this board, and it is awesome. In your budget, you can get an AWD, 6-speed manual, wagon, with a 280hp turbocharged V6. I mean, talk about a car that can do it all! https://www.saabnet.com/tsn/class/ci.php3?ph=photos/21604/1