Does it charge the battery faster? Is it just because E85 is a dollar a gallon cheaper than regular 87 octane?
Does it charge the battery faster? Is it just because E85 is a dollar a gallon cheaper than regular 87 octane?
Why not? Where is the downside?
I don't know what the flex fuel option costs for a Toyota but it's probably decently expensive. Ford was the cheapest domestic I found at $99
With 13:1 on the Atkinson, it probably makes things more responsive and adds timing. Though it certainly isn't an efficient fuel choice.
I wonder if the injectors would pop into a 1NZ or 2ZZ without too much fuss...
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:With 13:1 on the Atkinson, it probably makes things more responsive and adds timing. Though it certainly isn't an efficient fuel choice.
I wonder if the injectors would pop into a 1NZ or 2ZZ without too much fuss...
Not efficient? I mean I get 2 mpg less using E85 on my 5.0 V8 4x4 F150 Ford pickup 22 instead of 24.
Filling the tank with E85 saves me $20 a tank but the lower fuel mileage takes back $10.00 of that.
I didn't know the motor had such a high compression ratio. That makes sense because of the higher octane (114 ) of ethanol will allow more advance of timing.
Ethanol is usually kind of a wash in most of the parameters; cheaper to buy but worse MPG, higher octane rating but lower BTU content.
I think the real advantage is for the type of environmentalist-leaning folks who would buy that type of vehicle would appreciate being able to use a fuel that had to first take CO2 out of the atmosphere before it was made into fuel, as opposed to fuel that takes CO2 from deep underground and spews it into the air we breathe.
Is there an actual flex fuel option on the Prius? I don't think I've ever seen or read anything about it.
In reply to STM317 :
Must be I've seen my 4th one with the emblem this week.
I did have a laugh though when I saw a guy without the emblem filling his Prius with E85.
There must be something local to you as I've never heard of this.
is e85 more stable long term than normal gas?
MrChaos said:is e85 more stable long term than normal gas?
No, to the point that you really want to buy E85 from a place that moves a lot of it. Or in drums direct from supplier, if you're that serious. (Although that is usually crazy expensive, like $70+ for a five gallon drum)
I also live where it tends to be humid, which is the real problem. Alcohol loves to absorb moisture from the air.
OTOH, E85 is generally about the same price as 87 here, so there is no real financial incentive to use it unless you are feeding a highly turbocharged car, where it is competing against C16 for price.
Isn't the big reason for flex fuel to improve manufacturer CAFE numbers?
Pete. (l33t FS) said:MrChaos said:is e85 more stable long term than normal gas?
No, to the point that you really want to buy E85 from a place that moves a lot of it. Or in drums direct from supplier, if you're that serious. (Although that is usually crazy expensive, like $70+ for a five gallon drum)
I also live where it tends to be humid, which is the real problem. Alcohol loves to absorb moisture from the air.
OTOH, E85 is generally about the same price as 87 here, so there is no real financial incentive to use it unless you are feeding a highly turbocharged car, where it is competing against C16 for price.
A bit of a misconception. Alcohol can absorb moisture from the atmosphere, but the amount of atmospheric air that interacts with the fuel in your tank is next to zero.
Plus, alcohol is miscible with water, so it will hold a LOT more water in harmless suspension than gasoline (which holds basically zero). In order for (using rough math) E15 to become a problem with water, a 20 gallon tank would have to absorb over one cup (8 oz) of water before water is a problem.
Remember, back in the day if we had a wee bit of water in the gasoline we would intentionally add alcohol (gas dry) to dissolve and suspend the water so it can harmlessly go through the system.
matthewmcl said:Isn't the big reason for flex fuel to improve manufacturer CAFE numbers?
No. Alc0hol reduces MPG, so it would be working against CAFE.
frenchyd said:In reply to STM317 :
Must be I've seen my 4th one with the emblem this week.
I did have a laugh though when I saw a guy without the emblem filling his Prius with E85.
Something in this thread just doesn't add up.
From the site fueleconomy.gov which is the official US Dept of Energy site there has never been a Prius offered for sale in the US that is certified for E85. That doesn't mean that people haven't wrongly filled them with E85 but Toyota is not recommending the use of E85. No Prius would have a E85 badge from the factory.
Further more, using the Power Search function on the same site, the highest mpg reported by a manufacturer via E85 is the 2.0L Ford Focus, like 2016 with a rating of 20/23/28 (and 28/32/39 with regular unleaded.)
Were you maybe seeing a Ford Focus with the badge?
This is a 2016 Ford Focus. Under the badge which says Titanium (fanciest trim level) there is a Flex Fuel badge.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:matthewmcl said:Isn't the big reason for flex fuel to improve manufacturer CAFE numbers?
No. Alc0hol reduces MPG, so it would be working against CAFE.
CAFE only counts the gas in the fuel, not the ethanol, and that's why there are some horrible FE cars that have flex fuel- like trucks. E85 works very much toward CAFE. Major loophole, if you ask me.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:matthewmcl said:Isn't the big reason for flex fuel to improve manufacturer CAFE numbers?
No. Alc0hol reduces MPG, so it would be working against CAFE.
Well...... (checks replies before posting 
) to alfadriver's point, since CAFE only counts gasoline consumption, if you are running E85 then you have reduced fuel consumption by 85% as far as CAFE is concerned.
This, I assume, is why a lot of fleet vehicles were flex fuel.
alfadriver said:Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:matthewmcl said:Isn't the big reason for flex fuel to improve manufacturer CAFE numbers?
No. Alc0hol reduces MPG, so it would be working against CAFE.
CAFE only counts the gas in the fuel, not the ethanol, and that's why there are some horrible FE cars that have flex fuel- like trucks. E85 works very much toward CAFE. Major loophole, if you ask me.
Today I learned. Old dog, new tricks.
In reply to alfadriver :
I don't think it's a loophole. The whole point of ethanol is that you are using carbon that existed in the biosphere, the plant ate it and converted it to some kind of sugar, then we brewed it to be released back into the atmosphere. (while using copious amounts of fossil fuels to create it)
Fossil fuels require you to dig up oil from way under the ground and burn it to release the carbon into the atmosphere that it hasn't seen for billions of years. It takes carbon that nature buried billions of years ago and shifts it to the air we share. I dig ethanol. Bring it.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
If E85 was really widely available, it would make sense. But it's not. I had a flex fuel focus, and never came across an E85 pump that was easily accessible- so all of those credits came up to nothing.
I get the point about greenhouse gasses, very much so. This was not the way to do it. Remember, CAFE's basic rules came out back in the 70's during a oil crisis, so the whole flex fuel thing was to use domestic fuel sources. And this was pushed through in that manner by farm state congress members later in the 90s. Way before CO2 was really on the radar of anyone.
It could have been done a lot more effectively than it was is my point. Which made the current "reasons" a loophole.
alfadriver said:In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
If E85 was really widely available, it would make sense. But it's not. I had a flex fuel focus, and never came across an E85 pump that was easily accessible-
It's an aside from the overall discussion, but most Meijer store fueling stations have E85. They're pretty common in MI. Kind of like public EV chargers, E85 pumps aren't as thin on the ground as many people think. It's just that most people that aren't specifically looking for them overlook them.
I don't think the carbon equation works out on E85 once you do a full account. Better than million year old dead things, probably. Good enough for the long haul? Probably not.
I also don't think I've ever seen a Flex Prius.. maybe just some sort of hybrid badge that looks similar?
STM317 said:alfadriver said:In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
If E85 was really widely available, it would make sense. But it's not. I had a flex fuel focus, and never came across an E85 pump that was easily accessible-
It's an aside from the overall discussion, but most Meijer store fueling stations have E85. They're pretty common in MI. Kind of like public EV chargers, E85 pumps aren't as thin on the ground as many people think. It's just that most people that aren't specifically looking for them overlook them.
Which works if a Meijer is on your commute path. It's not for me, and I would have had to gone out of my way to get E85. I could have gotten gas at a few places near my commute, but it was such a pain to do that, I never did it- just not worth it.
It's one thing that you can find it pretty easily, it's another when it's really on everyone's commute path.
alfadriver said:In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
If E85 was really widely available, it would make sense. But it's not. I had a flex fuel focus, and never came across an E85 pump that was easily accessible- so all of those credits came up to nothing.
I get the point about greenhouse gasses, very much so. This was not the way to do it. Remember, CAFE's basic rules came out back in the 70's during a oil crisis, so the whole flex fuel thing was to use domestic fuel sources. And this was pushed through in that manner by farm state congress members later in the 90s. Way before CO2 was really on the radar of anyone.
It could have been done a lot more effectively than it was is my point. Which made the current "reasons" a loophole.
Here in the Midwest you don't have to go very far to find E85. But even away from the corn belt it's not as rare as some think. My friend loaded the app on his phone and found it in a lot of places in San Diego.
To those who use some flawed data to argue about carbon usage please read the premise carefully. E85 isn't hauled by the truck load to every major town, it's pumped in underground pipes like oil is.
The vast majority of refining places for ethanol are in the corn belt and here in Minnesota there were 9 refineries when I was renting equipment to build them. Located in the very communities that the corn grows in.
Once the ethanol is extracted the remains are used for animal feed and other purposes. The fertilizer generated by those cows and pigs etc. is put back on the land to increase crop production. A rather tidy form of recycling with very little transportation involved.
The markets have adjusted the prices to the point where there is plenty of corn etc available for the global market. Yet there are countless plots of land that aren't actively farmed.
To those who think the ethanol bill was flawed, likely haven't sufficient knowledge to understand everything.
Personally. I'm tired of paying over $10 a gallon for a premium racing gas or even $1.50 /gallon more than premium 91 octane gas when E85 runs cooler, keeps the engine cleaner, and makes more power.
In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :
Have you seen the flex fuel badges used on American branded vehicles? That's what Toyota's looks like. Considering The first one I saw still had it's paper tag on ( they used to call those 10 day tags but with the cut back in public employees it's now more like 30-45 days)
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