Why do people convert Injected 5.0s to carb?

Also, lots of v-6s and four bangers were converted to v-8 status. Those are what is for sale. 

Jumper K Balls said:

 

"750 double pumper" Why is it always a double pumper? Every outlandish claim about automotive domination seems to include a berking double pumper. 

 

Because everybody that has a carb that says Holley on it thinks they have a double pumper. 

I watched the following exchange at a swap meet

Friend; "whatcha got here?" (looking at a carb)

Seller; "750 double pumper"

F; "no it's not"

S; "berkeley if it aint"

F; "How many accelerator pumps does it have?"

S; "........."

F; points at acc pump "this is the accelerator pump. It only has one. Double pumpers have two. Hence the term. Double equals two. This is not a double pumper. 

S; "berkeley if it aint."

tester said:

In reply to Hungary Bill :

I guess I can see the worn out harness angle but really all of that is replaceable. Painless wiring and various other companies sell harnesses.  People made plenty of power with a stock AL9 box and a chip, a Tweecer, or a modified mass air sensor back in the day. This is not witch craft. 

Mostly people are simply ignorant. 

I have a handheld  OBDI/II scanner with the connector for Ford, GM, etc. You can probably get an adapter for the Torque app or similar these days.  There are also  little standalone boxes for OBDI. Again, this is not hard. 

 

The last FOX that I owned was a1992 model over 10 years ago. It had over 200k miles on it at that point. Any of these cars that are actually driven are nearing 300k at this point in their life. They are on their nth owner, usually a kid with little knowledge or funds. From that point of view just getting the engine rebuilt and running is probably breaking the bank. 

A good used carb and manifold will cost maybe $150 at a swap meet and require nothing more than a rebuild.  

Fuel rejection?  Wires ECU chip etc will cost a lot more.  Then there is the skill of tuning. Not something everybody is capable of dealing with

   Plus there is the whole matter of appropriate. Push rods, rocker arms,  etc.  are something out of the 50’s.  Why not use carbs even if they are double pumpers?  

Face it an XKE just looks better with triple 2 inch SU’s even if fuel rejection will make as much horsepower.  

Or is it that you don’t know how to rebuild and tune a carburetor?  

I've shopped Fox bodies for years, never was in the situation where I could pull the trigger. Plenty of experience with 302 Ford engines, though. 

I've had everything from the hated variable Venturi carburetor to several different versions of Holly four barrels, including, oh yes, a 650 double Pumper.

While everybody has their own reasons to prefer carb or fuel injection, for me an 86 or newer with a carb is an automatic rule out.

Jumper K Balls said:

"750 double pumper" Why is it always a double pumper? Every outlandish claim about automotive domination seems to include a berking double pumper. 

 

Don't forget the "Three quarter race cam" 

In reply to tester :

I guess I can see the worn out harness angle but really all of that is replaceable. Painless wiring and various other companies sell harnesses.  People made plenty of power with a stock AL9 box and a chip, a Tweecer, or a modified mass air sensor back in the day. This is not witch craft. 

Mostly people are simply ignorant. 

I have a handheld  OBDI/II scanner with the connector for Ford, GM, etc. You can probably get an adapter for the Torque app or similar these days.  There are also  little standalone boxes for OBDI. Again, this is not hard. 

You forget that to the primitive man seeing one for the first time, a BIC lighter IS magic. 

Painless wiring

 a stock AL9 box

and a chip,

a Tweecer,

or a modified mass air sensor

Because you have acquired all of this arcane knowledge through experience, you are probably not aware of the degree of learning, research and trial and error that went into even knowing what most of those words mean. Most people don't have a clue what the above items are.

If the term "Ignorant" is taken without any demeaning overtones, then you are spot-on. In order to understand a factory Fox body EFI system, you would have to start from ground zero and assimilate technology that you knew nothing about and trial and error your way to success.  It is doable.

OR 

For less money and with no real learning curve, you could be driving your hot rod. 

Not saying that a carb does not have a learning curve if you want to make it run at its best, but with a pile of parts sitting on the floor, one EFI and the other a Carb set-up, the average primitive is going to have more luck with the carb. Ian nailed this one.

For a smart, evolving simian, the carb WILL lead to EFI since it is indisputably a better way to leak fuel into an engine. 

Pete

. 

gearheadmb said:

Jumper K Balls said:

 

"750 double pumper" Why is it always a double pumper? Every outlandish claim about automotive domination seems to include a berking double pumper. 

 

Because everybody that has a carb that says Holley on it thinks they have a double pumper. 

I watched the following exchange at a swap meet

Friend; "whatcha got here?" (looking at a carb)

Seller; "750 double pumper"

F; "no it's not"

S; "berkeley if it aint"

F; "How many accelerator pumps does it have?"

S; "........."

F; points at acc pump "this is the accelerator pump. It only has one. Double pumpers have two. Hence the term. Double equals two. This is not a double pumper. 

S; "berkeley if it aint."

Double-pumper's ain't E36 M3. Holley Dominator carb or nothing.

Cost and simplicity. My only fuel injected fox was a 2.3 car. One stock and two converted to 2.3t. If I had to do the 2.3t conversion again I'd skip it and put in a 302 with a Holley. I don't hate fuel injection but cost is a factor in everything and most of the project vehicles I've owned were old enough to be factory carb cars and I learned how too work on them so I'm comfortable with it. 

EastCoastMojo said:

Come on, who doesn't like to say double pumper?

 

Heh heh, heh heh. 

 

Double pumper.

Sounds like something Woody would bring to a two alarm fire. 

Some other reasons:

First, I'm not sure what years you're looking at, but Fox body V8s didn't get multiport injection until '86. So if you're looking at earlier ones, they'd have been carbed from the factory.

Second, that stock 5.0 intake manifold doesn't give you much top end power - it has long runners designed for low RPM torque. You can currently get a little more high RPM for cheap by swapping to an Explorer intake, but beyond that, manifolds that keep the EFI are rather pricey compared to a single plane carb intake.

Carbs are easy, reliable, and cheap.

I wanted to add:
How many wires does it take to wire up a carb'd engine to run? Not including plug wires, 2 or 3, at the most. In a stock car, with a stock harness, obviously EFI is the way to go since its all there. But when you are talking engine swaps or a hacked up car, then nothing can beat the simplicity of carburetors.

Tuning a carb takes a $2.00 screwdriver. What does a cable, software,  and laptop cost tune EFI? 

It's not just tuning. If you want to upgrade the stock efi stuff you are looking at $$$. Airflow sensors, intake manifolds, throttle bodies, fuel injectors (8!), fuel pump, etc. Then tune the computer. All that is cost you could use for good heads instead if you just got a carb.

Look through a jegs catalog at Fox efi stuff and you will see. The factory stuff is close to maxxed out from the factory.

MotorsportsGordon said:

Plus early oem fuel injection systems are not much for performance etc either. And finding parts for some of them can be difficult aswell. Sure you could go with an aftermarket injection or tbi injection but you can make big power with carbs aswell.

Word.  I am considering trashing the TBI system on my Nissan truck and going with a Weber.     

NOHOME said:

For a smart, evolving simian, the carb WILL lead to EFI since it is indisputably a better way to leak fuel into an engine. 

Pete

 

That is part of my problem.  The EFI is leaking way too much fuel into the engine. 

I've been interested in the bolt on the self tuning EFI systems like the Holly Sniper and Fitech that can be dropped on a carb intake. 

Then I came across this discussion:
 

Before you buy any Self Learning EFI system, please read!

I've only had time to read the first page, but thought it relevant to this discussion. 

In reply to Floating Doc :

This is part of the reason why the self-learning EFI setups don't play nice with a rotary as well. There simply isn't a stable enough vacuum signal at idle, unless you open up the plenum, and even then it is iffy.

I've owned 3 Fox Mustangs, all Fuel Injected. I've also worked on carb engines.  I like FI and I wouldn't want a carb on an engine that I could put FI on.

The stock Ford system on the 5.0 HO  Mustangs was good for around 325 HP. The Cobras will make closer to 370 HP with the right mods. Both figures would required a cam change since Ford stock cams  were  picked for good street manners and emissions.  Higher figures are of course possible but then you have to change intakes and go to aftermarket heads or serious porting on the stock ones.

Can you made "big" power with a carb faster and easier, sure but that engine won't run as well as the FI one when driven on the street in a "normal" manner.

And the major restriction here is still the stock cylinder heads. They're good street heads ( E7's. GT40's , & GT40P's)  but the small ports and valves limit power levels.

The "bolt on self tuning fuel systems" are not much better than a carb and still require a EFI fuel supply. (return mod or in-tank module and O2 sensor install)

I do not recommend them, they fall short in the bang for the buck department.

The problem is Throttle body injection sucks at best.

- wetted walls messes with the fuel mixture (cylinder by cylinder and sometimes behaves differently at varying RPM)

- air flow is reduced due to fuel load increasing weight of air

- fuel distribution is haphazard (the manifold needs little traffic workers with signs, cones and flags to tell stuff which way to go)

- there is a reason none of the OEM's continue to use TBI (TBI sucks)

- EFI's goal is to make each cylinder perform as close to the same as all others as possible. This way you are not tuning to "average", you are lighting equal fires in all cylinders. This increases efficiency thus gets better mileage and makes more torques. You can't do that when you have introduced fuel in the column at the far end of a tunnel (maze).

A registered version of Tuner Studio makes a MegaSquirt self tuning.

TheRX7Project said:

Carbs are easy, reliable, and cheap.

I wanted to add:
How many wires does it take to wire up a carb'd engine to run? Not including plug wires, 2 or 3, at the most. In a stock car, with a stock harness, obviously EFI is the way to go since its all there. But when you are talking engine swaps or a hacked up car, then nothing can beat the simplicity of carburetors.

QFT.

A carb is inarguably inferior from every angle except simplicity. And cost. I was a long time enemy of EFI, now a believer, but even though I ~understand~ how EFI works and have reasonable confidence I could set up a system from JY parts and MS, I know it would be bigly more expensive, time consuming and a YUGE learning curve when it came to tuning. A decent street carb can be had new, with warranty and customer support, for <$400.

And then you have cold weather.   Starting and cold running.

If the carb has a manual choke it took a certain procedure.

Automatic chokes helped but you still had to set it. 

Both benefited from a brief warm up to get off fast idle.

FI,  turn the key or push the button and drive off.  QED

Anybody aware of the fiasco of the first carbd Rabbitts ?    Or when Jeep switched to manual chokes with practically no manifold heat ?

Floating Doc said:

I've been interested in the bolt on the self tuning EFI systems like the Holly Sniper and Fitech that can be dropped on a carb intake. 

Then I came across this discussion:
 

Before you buy any Self Learning EFI system, please read!

I've only had time to read the first page, but thought it relevant to this discussion. 

The OP in that post you refrence is talking about how the Fitech plays with engines with less than 7 inches of vacuum! A normal street car pulls about 19 inches.

The Fitech and Sniper were designed to get your  muscle car back and forth to the show with quick warm-up, good throttle response, fuel economy and minimal hydrocarbon stank being primary requirments. Assuming that they are properly installed and not factory -faulty, they seem to work well for that application.

7 inches of manifold vacuum is not indicative of a street car and I would suggest that while the Fitech might work, there are better solutions for such an application.

I'd still rather have a carb.

EastCoastMojo said:

Come on, who doesn't like to say double pumper?

 

Heh heh, heh heh. 

 

Double pumper.

Sometimes I'm pretty sure the only reason I come to this site is to see what kind of off the wall innuendos ECM will make!

Wow.  What great responses. I never knew that there was such difference in opinions on this subject.