Just a thought, E85 can make a noticeable jump in power especially in today's DI and/or Forced induction engines. We know they have the Flex Fuel technology............why not take advantage to increase performance as well?
I'm hoping alfa will chime in as well.
It's a pain in the ass to get as the distribution network never took off. My understanding is the FlexFuel vehicles have the ability to change the ECU map based on ethanol content which basically does what you describe netting the performance increases.
I wanted to convert the MS3 over to E85 but there is exactly one station near me and it's 25 miles away. Not exactly convenient.
This is basically why every time there's some new miracle fuel out that isn't a drop in replacement for Dino Juice I'm a tad skeptical of the claims. See also CNG and hydrogen.
When trying to get through today's regulatory liabilities for a new car, adding another layer to the cake is not an attractive proposition.
You would need to certify the emissions for both fuels
You would have to warranty engine for both fuels
You might decrease market size if the insurance companies suspect this is a power booster and charge more.
You would need to anticipate the higher HP use and put in more expensive brakes and suspension in anticipation; hence shrinking the market size once more as may wont want to pay
Maintenance would now involve two fuel systems with mechanics needing to be conversant in both.
The more appropriate question would be "Why WOULD they do it?"
Last I checked there's only 2 stations in all of Kentucky that have E85. I'm assuming this problem isn't unique to Kentucky.
Fuel system would have to be 1.7x the size it is now to actually get enough fuel to the engine. Energy density is not there and they would be threatened with lower CAFE standards I guess as well.
The biggest problem with DI engines and E85 is fuel flow. Sounds really odd, but the high pressure fuel pumps are volume flow limited- last I've heard, the best are about 400hp flow for gas. And that drops off a lot when you are trying to make power with E85.
The new breed of PFI-DI engines will pretty much take care of that.
But the other big problem with flex fuel is that you have to be able to run "low" octane regular fuel. Although, that's less of a problem than I make it out to be, when you see where combustion phasing really is for a peak power run.... Some other components are torque limited, but that can be taken care of on a car like a Mustang, for instance.
Emissions wise, E85 on DI is super, duper easy. I was really shocked how easy it was to do- it was as if DI was made specifically for E85. And since the entire industry has been doing flex fuel cars for decades, the dual cert issues is not much of one. If the benefit is there, you do it. CAFE is STILL very biased to E85, btw, as you only count the non-renewable part against you. (and it's not actually CAFE anymore- that changed a few years ago- but the benefit is still there)
If you are suggesting an E85 ONLY car- that isn't going to happen for an OEM. Just too hard to easily find the fuel for a nominal customer. Some may be able to - but I have a flex fuel Focus, and considered going to E85 to see what it would do. To much of a PITA to go out of my way to find E85.
So in the end, it's still about the ability of DI fuel systems to pump enough fuel that's the problem. And that will be changing over time.
NOHOME said:Maintenance would now involve two fuel systems with mechanics needing to be conversant in both.
Huh? Me thinks you don't quite understand how flex fuel systems work.
alfadriver said:The biggest problem with DI engines and E85 is fuel flow. Sounds really odd, but the high pressure fuel pumps are volume flow limited- last I've heard, the best are about 400hp flow for gas. And that drops off a lot when you are trying to make power with E85.
The new breed of PFI-DI engines will pretty much take care of that.
But the other big problem with flex fuel is that you have to be able to run "low" octane regular fuel. Although, that's less of a problem than I make it out to be, when you see where combustion phasing really is for a peak power run.... Some other components are torque limited, but that can be taken care of on a car like a Mustang, for instance.
Emissions wise, E85 on DI is super, duper easy. I was really shocked how easy it was to do- it was as if DI was made specifically for E85. And since the entire industry has been doing flex fuel cars for decades, the dual cert issues is not much of one. If the benefit is there, you do it. CAFE is STILL very biased to E85, btw, as you only count the non-renewable part against you. (and it's not actually CAFE anymore- that changed a few years ago- but the benefit is still there)
If you are suggesting an E85 ONLY car- that isn't going to happen for an OEM. Just too hard to easily find the fuel for a nominal customer. Some may be able to - but I have a flex fuel Focus, and considered going to E85 to see what it would do. To much of a PITA to go out of my way to find E85.
So in the end, it's still about the ability of DI fuel systems to pump enough fuel that's the problem. And that will be changing over time.
Yeah, most performance cars are already designed for 91/93, so I don't see that as much of an issue with modern DI engines running 12.5:1 and higher on 91 octane. I knew Emissions would be cake, since that was part of the original reason for Flex Fuel vehicles, right?
Nope, definitely not suggesting an E85 only car, it's not widely available enough. But flex fuel would be great because you can take advantage of it when it's there, and the car adjusts the tune back if all you have is normal gasoline....and of course anywhere in between.
As for fuel flow, I suspect the PFI-DI engines (like the BRZ) already have plenty of headroom in the stock system. The BRZ makes 200hp at the crank in stock form, it's stock fuel system is capable of supporting ~290-300whp on the stock fuel pump and injectors.
z31maniac said:alfadriver said:The biggest problem with DI engines and E85 is fuel flow. Sounds really odd, but the high pressure fuel pumps are volume flow limited- last I've heard, the best are about 400hp flow for gas. And that drops off a lot when you are trying to make power with E85.
The new breed of PFI-DI engines will pretty much take care of that.
But the other big problem with flex fuel is that you have to be able to run "low" octane regular fuel. Although, that's less of a problem than I make it out to be, when you see where combustion phasing really is for a peak power run.... Some other components are torque limited, but that can be taken care of on a car like a Mustang, for instance.
Emissions wise, E85 on DI is super, duper easy. I was really shocked how easy it was to do- it was as if DI was made specifically for E85. And since the entire industry has been doing flex fuel cars for decades, the dual cert issues is not much of one. If the benefit is there, you do it. CAFE is STILL very biased to E85, btw, as you only count the non-renewable part against you. (and it's not actually CAFE anymore- that changed a few years ago- but the benefit is still there)
If you are suggesting an E85 ONLY car- that isn't going to happen for an OEM. Just too hard to easily find the fuel for a nominal customer. Some may be able to - but I have a flex fuel Focus, and considered going to E85 to see what it would do. To much of a PITA to go out of my way to find E85.
So in the end, it's still about the ability of DI fuel systems to pump enough fuel that's the problem. And that will be changing over time.
Yeah, most performance cars are already designed for 91/93, so I don't see that as much of an issue with modern DI engines running 12.5:1 and higher on 91 octane. I knew Emissions would be cake, since that was part of the original reason for Flex Fuel vehicles, right?
Nope, definitely not suggesting an E85 only car, it's not widely available enough. But flex fuel would be great because you can take advantage of it when it's there, and the car adjusts the tune back if all you have is normal gasoline....and of course anywhere in between.
As for fuel flow, I suspect the PFI-DI engines (like the BRZ) already have plenty of headroom in the stock system. The BRZ makes 200hp at the crank in stock form, it's stock fuel system is capable of supporting ~290-300whp on the stock fuel pump and injectors.
My understanding (tell me if I'm wrong), is that 300hp of FUEL flow on 93 octane is maybe only 200hp of FUEL flow on e85.
But the airflow is opposite, 200 hp of airflow on 93 octane is like 300 hp of airflow on e85.
Since it is often easier to get more fuel than more air, that is why e85 is an easy performance target.
Mileage. As Alfa said, the energy density is lower in E-85 and when you turn up the wick to get silly hp you'd burn through a tank-full in just a couple of minutes.
We have flex fuel vehicles at work and they get a consistent 30-40% reduction in MPGs when fed corn squeezings .
In reply to KyAllroad :
For me, that mileage decrease is typically offset (or more) by the lower cost per gallon of e85. This is doubly true if the vehicle would regularly require premium gasoline (Like most modern, turbocharged vehicles). The price difference between e85 and Premium gasoline can be over $1/gallon around here. And boosted engines tend to run better on the e85, as long as the fuel system is designed for it. Better performance for less $ is a win/win in some applications, but I'm part of a pretty small segment of the population that has both a need and access to it.
z31maniac said:alfadriver said:The biggest problem with DI engines and E85 is fuel flow. Sounds really odd, but the high pressure fuel pumps are volume flow limited- last I've heard, the best are about 400hp flow for gas. And that drops off a lot when you are trying to make power with E85.
The new breed of PFI-DI engines will pretty much take care of that.
But the other big problem with flex fuel is that you have to be able to run "low" octane regular fuel. Although, that's less of a problem than I make it out to be, when you see where combustion phasing really is for a peak power run.... Some other components are torque limited, but that can be taken care of on a car like a Mustang, for instance.
Emissions wise, E85 on DI is super, duper easy. I was really shocked how easy it was to do- it was as if DI was made specifically for E85. And since the entire industry has been doing flex fuel cars for decades, the dual cert issues is not much of one. If the benefit is there, you do it. CAFE is STILL very biased to E85, btw, as you only count the non-renewable part against you. (and it's not actually CAFE anymore- that changed a few years ago- but the benefit is still there)
If you are suggesting an E85 ONLY car- that isn't going to happen for an OEM. Just too hard to easily find the fuel for a nominal customer. Some may be able to - but I have a flex fuel Focus, and considered going to E85 to see what it would do. To much of a PITA to go out of my way to find E85.
So in the end, it's still about the ability of DI fuel systems to pump enough fuel that's the problem. And that will be changing over time.
Yeah, most performance cars are already designed for 91/93, so I don't see that as much of an issue with modern DI engines running 12.5:1 and higher on 91 octane. I knew Emissions would be cake, since that was part of the original reason for Flex Fuel vehicles, right?
Nope, definitely not suggesting an E85 only car, it's not widely available enough. But flex fuel would be great because you can take advantage of it when it's there, and the car adjusts the tune back if all you have is normal gasoline....and of course anywhere in between.
As for fuel flow, I suspect the PFI-DI engines (like the BRZ) already have plenty of headroom in the stock system. The BRZ makes 200hp at the crank in stock form, it's stock fuel system is capable of supporting ~290-300whp on the stock fuel pump and injectors.
For PFI, E85 is really much harder than gas or E10. For some reason, DI and E85 are a match made in heaven. One of the easiest projects I ever worked on.
Still, for some of the production turbo DI engines out there, you are right that there's a massive opportunity for power on E85. It's a matter of getting a fuel system large enough to deal with it. Not so much for N/A engines, but turbos have a lot of potential. I could actually imagine that IF the Focus RS was PF-DI, that could pick up some power if calibrated well with E85.
(and thinking about it, you would really want a very accurate measure of the E content AND a really accurate measurement of the knock benefit. E85 can be as low as E50 legally- which has a lot of impact WRT octane and it's domino effects.)
Yes, but I think typically you can make MBT around E60. The pumps around here are labeled as "Minimum E70 content" so that's what they always are. Based on the guys with E content gauges.
We run true flex fuel on a number of our cars. A good little GM or Continental sensor and an ECU that adjusts the fuel and timing for the ethanol content in the fuel line right now. It's easy to live with - just dump in whatever you plan to burn today and the car makes it happen. That's on antique port injection engines, not modern DI. We are looking at bringing flex fuel to the turbo NDs but we're currently limited on fuel flow even on gasoline.
Koenisegg required E85 for their One:1. Not a major manufacturer, of course, and it did have flex fuel capability although I don't know how it worked and it was probably theoretical given that they're all locked away in climate-controlled bubbles anyhow.
On the 5th Gen Camaros like mine (2012 SS), you can add the flex-fuel sensor and tune in the computer and run on E85. Pretty cool, I might consider this down the road. The discussions did say not to do it on the ZL1, as the stock fuel system barely has the capacity for E85 on a stock engine, mods will make it worse. Of course you can upgrade the fuel system to get around that.
81cpcamaro said:On the 5th Gen Camaros like mine (2012 SS), you can add the flex-fuel sensor and tune in the computer and run on E85. Pretty cool, I might consider this down the road.
a friend of mine had a 6.2 silverado and had it tuned for 93 and e85 to match his bolt-ons. Their was a noticeable difference in power when it would change over to the e85 tune.
81cpcamaro said:On the 5th Gen Camaros like mine (2012 SS), you can add the flex-fuel sensor and tune in the computer and run on E85. Pretty cool, I might consider this down the road. The discussions did say not to do it on the ZL1, as the stock fuel system barely has the capacity for E85 on a stock engine, mods will make it worse. Of course you can upgrade the fuel system to get around that.
And on newer cars like the BRZ you can just flash an E85 tune.
However, these assume you will only run consistent E85 in the car. The sensor is there to compensate, or take advantage or, differing levels of Ethanol in the fuel.
81cpcamaro said:On the 5th Gen Camaros like mine (2012 SS), you can add the flex-fuel sensor and tune in the computer and run on E85. Pretty cool, I might consider this down the road. The discussions did say not to do it on the ZL1, as the stock fuel system barely has the capacity for E85 on a stock engine, mods will make it worse. Of course you can upgrade the fuel system to get around that.
Upgrading the fuel system on a DI car is not as easy as you might think at the aftermarket level. Port injection, no worries.
Even if being an pure Alternative Fuel Vehicle made it exempt from CAFE standards, it would still have truly atrocious MPG numbers on the window sticker.
Keith Tanner said:81cpcamaro said:On the 5th Gen Camaros like mine (2012 SS), you can add the flex-fuel sensor and tune in the computer and run on E85. Pretty cool, I might consider this down the road. The discussions did say not to do it on the ZL1, as the stock fuel system barely has the capacity for E85 on a stock engine, mods will make it worse. Of course you can upgrade the fuel system to get around that.
Upgrading the fuel system on a DI car is not as easy as you might think at the aftermarket level. Port injection, no worries.
I think I recently saw where Edelbrock or Lingenfelter or somebody now has direct injection fuel system upgrades for C7 ZO6, complete with high pressure pump and injectors. I think...that was the first complete upgrade that I'd seen via the aftermarket.
STM317 said:Keith Tanner said:81cpcamaro said:On the 5th Gen Camaros like mine (2012 SS), you can add the flex-fuel sensor and tune in the computer and run on E85. Pretty cool, I might consider this down the road. The discussions did say not to do it on the ZL1, as the stock fuel system barely has the capacity for E85 on a stock engine, mods will make it worse. Of course you can upgrade the fuel system to get around that.
Upgrading the fuel system on a DI car is not as easy as you might think at the aftermarket level. Port injection, no worries.
I think I recently saw where Edelbrock or Lingenfelter or somebody now has direct injection fuel system upgrades for C7 ZO6, complete with high pressure pump and injectors. I think...that was the first complete upgrade that I'd seen via the aftermarket.
Interesting.
Although I still think the PFI-DI engines are superior. Look at all the BMW DI engines, and others, that have problems with carbon build up on the intake tract/valves. The port injection helps keep that clean.
Then you can use a larger pump and port injectors for the added fuel, like the Toyobaru Twins :)
I know I reference them alot, but the fuel setup and tuning options have proven what you can do with the dual setup.
Keith Tanner said:81cpcamaro said:On the 5th Gen Camaros like mine (2012 SS), you can add the flex-fuel sensor and tune in the computer and run on E85. Pretty cool, I might consider this down the road. The discussions did say not to do it on the ZL1, as the stock fuel system barely has the capacity for E85 on a stock engine, mods will make it worse. Of course you can upgrade the fuel system to get around that.
Upgrading the fuel system on a DI car is not as easy as you might think at the aftermarket level. Port injection, no worries.
Keith, are there not upgraded DI pump internals like there are for the MazdaSpeed 3's and Audi's and such?
E85 is a political construct of the US Midwest corn producers. I've never seen an E85 pump in Canada, and I presume its not very much more common on the coasts of the US.
Streetwiseguy said:E85 is a political construct of the US Midwest corn producers. I've never seen an E85 pump in Canada, and I presume its not very much more common on the coasts of the US.
Please don't look at Brazil and Ethanol content in gas.
Also, save the political garbage for a different thread.
I don't think that statement is particularly political. It's a comment on where E85 is available.
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