Keith Tanner said:Hands up if you buy your car parts at Rock Auto and your tools at Harbor Freight...
Rockauto is a collection of horrible parts suppliers, but it is not universally bad. You can still purchase some quality components there.
Keith Tanner said:Hands up if you buy your car parts at Rock Auto and your tools at Harbor Freight...
Rockauto is a collection of horrible parts suppliers, but it is not universally bad. You can still purchase some quality components there.
Keith Tanner said:Hands up if you buy your car parts at Rock Auto and your tools at Harbor Freight...
When I still had Miata's I bought from exactly 3 sources. Flyin' Miata, 949, my local Mazda dealer. I don't care much for wrenching instead of driving. Buy once, cry once.
With the BRZ, Mike Kang from CounterSpaceGarage. When I had my R6, always from K&N Yamaha in Tulsa.
Hey, what makes Rock Auto worse than Amazon or Ebay?
Honestly, you can get some rather poor quality stuff at Advance Auto or Autozone as well...
ProDarwin said:Keith Tanner said:Hands up if you buy your car parts at Rock Auto and your tools at Harbor Freight...
Rockauto is a collection of horrible parts suppliers, but it is not universally bad. You can still purchase some quality components there.
The problem is that you have no way to evaluate the parts and they don't do any sort of curating of their suppliers. So unless you have a known manufacturer that's always good, you just end up shrugging and getting the cheapest one in stock. Amazon and eBay are the same, the only difference is that those two are just marketplaces. eBay doesn't sell anything, they're just a mechanism. For most auto parts the same is true for Amazon although they're less transparent about it. Rock Auto could choose not to offer crap parts, eBay and Amazon aren't involved in the decision of what their vendors offer.
If you're buying from a local parts store, you can ask the counter person what they've seen because they'll actually know what comes back. So you've got some feedback at least. And of course there are the specialists that are usually willing to stand behind the products they sell, but who are often derided by their community for being so expensive.
It's not 100% any one way, but with regards to Duke's point about the population choosing this, as others have noted, paying more at this point is no assurance of better quality. That is, quality may cost more, but enough places are charging higher prices for the same thing that being willing to pay more will often simply teach the market that the demand exists for the same crap at higher prices.
Until there is a way of knowing in advance that there is a cost/quality correlation IN REALITY, it's hard to argue that consumers should be willing to gamble more. I think in another thread I suggested the notion that a company would have to go in betting on this, and with enough money to advertise this fact while losing money hand over fist until consumers actually trusted the fact by way of enough people trying it and getting a good result. Nobody right now could be expected to trust blindly a company that said "Our products cost more because they are better."
And I want to underscore the use of the word gamble early in the prior paragraph: We should not expect to get the best quality for the least money, but given that we cannot at this point expect quality to rise with expenditure in a reliable fashion, paying more is often effectively gambling.
There are exceptions; sometimes we do know something about the sources, their reliability, and what we're getting for our money. We should indeed support those places where you still have the option to pay more AND get what you pay for.
Anyhow, I've now created yet another thread where we can have the same argument as before. With regard to what I was hoping was a different angle, I think there have been some very sane answers to possibilities for parts and other items to have different relationships to manufacturing tech and marketability. I'm not convinced by all of them, but it certainly helps turn down the cognitive dissonance a bit.
In reply to Apexcarver :
Agreed. But every single point you mentioned is covered quite thoroughly by greed.
Why spend so much effort trying to justify the motives of bad people? Until we as a human race start admitting there are lots of bad people out there, nothing is getting better.
We'd be a lot better off discussing alternatives or ways to wade through the crap to get the best parts and tools possible for your dollar.
Mr. Peabody said:Jesse Ransom said:My question is really about how with improved manufacturing technology, why isn't even the really cheap stuff better? Why is it worse than it used to be
What makes you think that manufacturing technology is significantly better today than it was 15-20 years ago (your reference point), and why do you think the the really cheap stuff isn't better, or at least not as good as it used to be?
I'm still waiting for an answer because, in my experience, the really cheap stuff is light years ahead of what it used to be, just like the Chinese tools are, and the Japanese ones were before that
Keith Tanner said:ProDarwin said:Keith Tanner said:Hands up if you buy your car parts at Rock Auto and your tools at Harbor Freight...
Rockauto is a collection of horrible parts suppliers, but it is not universally bad. You can still purchase some quality components there.
The problem is that you have no way to evaluate the parts and they don't do any sort of curating of their suppliers. So unless you have a known manufacturer that's always good, you just end up shrugging and getting the cheapest one in stock. Amazon and eBay are the same, the only difference is that those two are just marketplaces. eBay doesn't sell anything, they're just a mechanism. For most auto parts the same is true for Amazon although they're less transparent about it. Rock Auto could choose not to offer crap parts, eBay and Amazon aren't involved in the decision of what their vendors offer.
If you're buying from a local parts store, you can ask the counter person what they've seen because they'll actually know what comes back. So you've got some feedback at least. And of course there are the specialists that are usually willing to stand behind the products they sell, but who are often derided by their community for being so expensive.
I agree with the RockAuto sentiment. Its a shame because they do have one of the best user interfaces of any parts website, which is something I do like to support. I will only give them my money if its to purchase from a supplier I am familiar with though.
In my experience the local auto parts store is just as bad. I've bought an alternator there before (on a sunday, because the dealer wasn't open) and asked the guy what the best they have is, and returned several hours later with a DOA part. He wasn't at all surprised. There are many many items they carry where the highest quality is still trash. I don't think they are really curated in any way.
Keith Tanner said:. So unless you have a known manufacturer that's always good, you just end up shrugging and getting the cheapest one in stock.
Well, most parts have a known manufacturer, be it Delco or Bosch or Raybestos. I always go for the known brand and never buy the cheapest in stock. I doubt I'm unique in that regard.
ProDarwin said:Keith Tanner said:ProDarwin said:Keith Tanner said:Hands up if you buy your car parts at Rock Auto and your tools at Harbor Freight...
Rockauto is a collection of horrible parts suppliers, but it is not universally bad. You can still purchase some quality components there.
The problem is that you have no way to evaluate the parts and they don't do any sort of curating of their suppliers. So unless you have a known manufacturer that's always good, you just end up shrugging and getting the cheapest one in stock. Amazon and eBay are the same, the only difference is that those two are just marketplaces. eBay doesn't sell anything, they're just a mechanism. For most auto parts the same is true for Amazon although they're less transparent about it. Rock Auto could choose not to offer crap parts, eBay and Amazon aren't involved in the decision of what their vendors offer.
If you're buying from a local parts store, you can ask the counter person what they've seen because they'll actually know what comes back. So you've got some feedback at least. And of course there are the specialists that are usually willing to stand behind the products they sell, but who are often derided by their community for being so expensive.
I agree with the RockAuto sentiment. Its a shame because they do have one of the best user interfaces of any parts website, which is something I do like to support. I will only give them my money if its to purchase from a supplier I am familiar with though.
In my experience the local auto parts store is just as bad. I've bought an alternator there before (on a sunday, because the dealer wasn't open) and asked the guy what the best they have is, and returned several hours later with a DOA part. He wasn't at all surprised. There are many many items they carry where the highest quality is still trash. I don't think they are really curated in any way.
Alternators are a problem in my experience as well, which is why I had my last one rebuilt by a local specialty shop instead. Maybe the question to ask "is there any real difference between these?" :) It's not a guarantee, but you're more likely to get some sort of feedback beyond just a recognizable brand name. I've been advised on things like slave cylinders to get a specific version because the parts person sees far fewer of them come back, or feedback on clutches.
dculberson said:Keith Tanner said:. So unless you have a known manufacturer that's always good, you just end up shrugging and getting the cheapest one in stock.Well, most parts have a known manufacturer, be it Delco or Bosch or Raybestos. I always go for the known brand and never buy the cheapest in stock. I doubt I'm unique in that regard.
Hear Hear! Rockauto usually has better parts available than the LAPS. Occasionally the OEM stuff is available and good, but that's rare.
In reply to Mr. Peabody :
I think we're out of sync... I DO think a lot of cheap stuff is better than it used to be, I assume that's because of improvements in manufacturing tech, and it's specifically auto parts which, I think, have gotten much worse over the same time frame. And that's the crux of my confusion, though folks have suggested some reasons why this should be.
In my experience cheap (Chinese) auto parts have gotten much, much better. I wonder if it looks that way because the percentage of cheap parts you buy has gone up so it looks like they've gotten worse.
I did the math on (for instance) cheap pads and rotors this morning and for what I was paying 20 years ago, adjusted for inflation, I'm getting a far superior product today for the same money. And I've actually had very few problems with aftermarket parts.
In reply to ProDarwin :
I co own and manage a small auto parts store.
When I took it over 18 months ago it was the value shopping flaps in the market. It's taken 18 months of work with product reps , and local shops to go from stocking the economy version of the part and offering to order the premium to stoking the premium ( on many lines anyway) and offering customers to special order the economy version.
I can tell you as a parts store guy that I always suggest premium where possible, even though we often make more gp selling the economy products.
It comes down to education, you explain to the customer why that skf hub assembly or east Penn battery is the one you stock "Because it's the industry standard for quality."
Sell quality and you will cultivate quality customers. Sell economy and your in a race to the bottom and you may as well lock the doors.
Keith Tanner said:I think the big difference in tools is that you just don't see that cheap chrome anymore :) There may be no improvement in quality, but they sure LOOK a lot better.
I went to buy a replacement set of Matco box wrenches. The new ones are easily twice as thick, indicating cheaper materials or manufacturing or both. I refused the order.
If I wanted fat wrenches that give clearance problems in tight locations, I'd buy $10 wrenches from Harbor Freight, not $250 wrenches from Matco.
Keith Tanner said:ProDarwin said:Keith Tanner said:ProDarwin said:Keith Tanner said:Hands up if you buy your car parts at Rock Auto and your tools at Harbor Freight...
Rockauto is a collection of horrible parts suppliers, but it is not universally bad. You can still purchase some quality components there.
The problem is that you have no way to evaluate the parts and they don't do any sort of curating of their suppliers. So unless you have a known manufacturer that's always good, you just end up shrugging and getting the cheapest one in stock. Amazon and eBay are the same, the only difference is that those two are just marketplaces. eBay doesn't sell anything, they're just a mechanism. For most auto parts the same is true for Amazon although they're less transparent about it. Rock Auto could choose not to offer crap parts, eBay and Amazon aren't involved in the decision of what their vendors offer.
If you're buying from a local parts store, you can ask the counter person what they've seen because they'll actually know what comes back. So you've got some feedback at least. And of course there are the specialists that are usually willing to stand behind the products they sell, but who are often derided by their community for being so expensive.
I agree with the RockAuto sentiment. Its a shame because they do have one of the best user interfaces of any parts website, which is something I do like to support. I will only give them my money if its to purchase from a supplier I am familiar with though.
In my experience the local auto parts store is just as bad. I've bought an alternator there before (on a sunday, because the dealer wasn't open) and asked the guy what the best they have is, and returned several hours later with a DOA part. He wasn't at all surprised. There are many many items they carry where the highest quality is still trash. I don't think they are really curated in any way.
Alternators are a problem in my experience as well, which is why I had my last one rebuilt by a local specialty shop instead. Maybe the question to ask "is there any real difference between these?" :) It's not a guarantee, but you're more likely to get some sort of feedback beyond just a recognizable brand name. I've been advised on things like slave cylinders to get a specific version because the parts person sees far fewer of them come back, or feedback on clutches.
Interesting side note. I had my Focus' alternator rebuilt locally buy a shop that's been around for at least 30 years. Had everything ready to go, and he can't get springs gor the brushes.
He recommended an aftermarket alternator. I ordered it, and he thanked me for sticking with him. I said you wouldn't recommend junk, because you don't want me coming back with it. You wouldn't be in business this long selling lies.
1SlowVW said:In reply to ProDarwin :
I co own and manage a small auto parts store.
When I took it over 18 months ago it was the value shopping flaps in the market. It's taken 18 months of work with product reps , and local shops to go from stocking the economy version of the part and offering to order the premium to stoking the premium ( on many lines anyway) and offering customers to special order the economy version.
I can tell you as a parts store guy that I always suggest premium where possible, even though we often make more gp selling the economy products.
It comes down to education, you explain to the customer why that skf hub assembly or east Penn battery is the one you stock "Because it's the industry standard for quality."
Sell quality and you will cultivate quality customers. Sell economy and your in a race to the bottom and you may as well lock the doors.
Awesome. I wish a shop like yours existed near me. But surely you recognize that most people dont have a shop like this around them OR if they do, they are not aware it exists. Advance, Autozone, OReillys all sell similar garbage under different brand names in my experience.
That said, I'm skeptical that a "premium" version of a part exists for many vehicles other than the OEM. For common wear items, sure. But for example, motor mounts, alternators, radiators, etc. for many vehicles there are zero quality aftermarket components. What do you tell people in those cases?
On a related note, do you ship? I would gladly support a business like yours over any of the others.
There are still a couple of Aircooled VW suppliers that care what they sell.....
but there are so many more that just sell whatever is cheapest , because thats where the volume is ,
I often wonder when I see knockoff Chinese parts , what they used for a sample , did they order an original USA / German part or were they copying an already copied part ?
China is such a big place that its possible that they copy a 3rd generation part .
and how many Aircooled VWs or Miatas etc are in China so they can check to see if it fits and works properly :(
Years ago there was an Importer buying parts in Taiwan ( yes that long ago) , he would send a rear fender section etc to taiwan so they could fit the repro tailight and make sure it fits.......I doubt thats done very often,,,,,
In reply to californiamilleghia :
Third or fourth tier Chinese manufacturers have zero interest in quality control beyond verifying the item type and counting the number of pieces delivered. If you order 10,000 of something, their obligation ends when they deliver 10,000 things that look identifiably like the picture you gave them. Whether or not they are at all suitable for the intended purpose has no meaning.
That's not to say they are incapable of good work, just that they won't bother to do it unless you have full time inspection by your people on site, with strong rejection authority.
Keith Tanner said:Hands up if you buy your car parts at Rock Auto and your tools at Harbor Freight...
Me sometimes. I mean I will buy from Rock Auto if the parts are from a reputable brand and I can't get OEM parts.
I have zero problems with Harbor Freight. If it is a tool I use constantly (ie sockets/rachets) or battery powered, I buy elsewhere but for occasional use things I have never really had issues.
californiamilleghia said:Years ago there was an Importer buying parts in Taiwan ( yes that long ago) , he would send a rear fender section etc to taiwan so they could fit the repro tailight and make sure it fits.......I doubt thats done very often,,,,,
Not often, but another example I read in Octane magazine of a company in Vietnam that specialized in chrome bumpers. They have a rep in the UK that will verify measurements before sending them to fab.
In reply to j_tso :
my friend got a set of those and was real happy......but the car is not finished enough to mount them !
and they are stainless steel.
I've mentioned it previously but when I did business in China you absolutely had to specify the level of quality control you required as well as penalties for failing to maintain standards.
I use Rockauto almost exclusively because of their website; it's well laid out and I often use it for research. I do business with them based on the fact that they've provided me with a useful tool. I seldom buy the cheapest part and stick to brands I would buy regardless of where I got them.
I'd love to have a actual auto parts store rather than the retail chain stores; the value of a parts person instead of a cashier is immeasurable.
Duke said:In reply to californiamilleghia :
Third or fourth tier Chinese manufacturers have zero interest in quality control beyond verifying the item type and counting the number of pieces delivered. If you order 10,000 of something, their obligation ends when they deliver 10,000 things that look identifiably like the picture you gave them. Whether or not they are at all suitable for the intended purpose has no meaning.
That's not to say they are incapable of good work, just that they won't bother to do it unless you have full time inspection by your people on site, with strong rejection authority.
Having worked with Chinese suppliers at work and learned a few things, you are correct. There is no impediment to getting quality parts out of China. However, if left to their own devices they are a nation of Smokey Yunicks when it comes to interpreting the rules of the contract.
Your best bet is to work with a supplier that is already suppling a quality product for a large company abroad. The heavy lifting of instilling a quality infrastructure and culture will have been done already.
Contracts don't really help; Chinese know that no foreign small business can afford to fight them on their home turf, but they WILL fight you on NA grounds if you do not pay.
My best luck was with circuit boards and small batch prototype board assembly. For what it is worth, do not have any product descriptor on the board drawings you send!
I used to work in a company that did QC for automotive seating, and we would build assembly lines for them that performed on line QC for every single seat. Probably touched on 200 or more data points as it went down the line from range/force of motion to sound of seat and motors during actuation and foam displacement for a given mass. Not to mention parts presence/absence and bolt torque specs. The same seat could have been assembled by one person at a stationary assembly table and sent out the door as long as the motors moved, and you might have had to live with a 10% field problem. No problem for a chinese aftermarket supplier, huge problem for OEM. Gamble for the buyer. 90% will be happy and 10% will scream chinesium
Hose shop, previous job bought a lot of parts from China - expansion compensators. They have different ends and we bought a container with copper sweat ends. Nicely painted and wrapped and put into a decent packaging box. Little flexes to absorb pipe thermal growth.
We start shipping our stock and people started complaining you can't sweat the supposedly copper sweat ends to tubing cause the ends are made out of carbon steel. DOH!
They looked great but were garbage. We cut the ends off some and welded nipples on but it was a fiasco cause the length didn't match the submittal drawing sent to the architect/engineering firm.
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