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irish44j
irish44j HalfDork
6/20/10 7:50 p.m.

I don't care much about NASCAR one way or the other (and I'm from the south)....I don't deny the skill it takes to race oval track, I just think it's boring to watch from a spectator standpoint. Same way that I actually play club soccer, but can't stand watching it on TV.

I do think that alot of the issue with NASCAR though is that it seems to alot of people to be more about the personalities than the racing itself. I can watch a LeMans race and really enjoy it, and know NOTHING about the drivers whatsoever. Hell, I haven't ever heard of most of them - it's all about the racing. I don't "hate" or "love" any LeMans drivers...NASCAR is more a cult of personality - people love or hate certain drivers for reasons I have never been able to fully comprehend....but it's all about the drivers. I mean, you can still see "in memory of #3" stickers on people's cars. Have you ever seen "in memory of #2" stickers for Ayrton Senna?

ah whatever, I'm just babbleing anyhow.

96DXCivic
96DXCivic Dork
6/20/10 7:53 p.m.

In reply to irish44j:

I should get a "in memory of #5" sticker made.

Hal
Hal HalfDork
6/20/10 8:15 p.m.
novaderrik wrote: one thing that bugs me about NASCAR is the way they cover the post race- Robby Gordon is the last old school independent owner/driver and managed to pull off a second place finish at Sears Point today. after the race, they interviewed everyone else in the top 10 or so and a few of the big names that raced like crap or crashed and finished back in the 30's so they could get their sponsors some air time, but never talked to the guy that got a hard fought 2nd place finish. Robby's car did get a lot of air time during the race and they talked about him a lot, but they never talked to him on camera.

You must have taken a potty break or something at the end of the race. Robby was the first driver they interviewed at the end of the race. They did it while JJ was still taking his victory lap.

novaderrik
novaderrik Reader
6/20/10 8:56 p.m.

hmm.. what i saw was Jimmy doing his victory laps and what not, then a commercial break, then talk to Jeff Gordon or someone like that, then Jimmy in victory lane.

oldsaw
oldsaw Dork
6/20/10 9:15 p.m.
novaderrik wrote: hmm.. what i saw was Jimmy doing his victory laps and what not, then a commercial break, then talk to Jeff Gordon or someone like that, then Jimmy in victory lane.

Pay attention; you'd have seen ROBBIE Gordon get his deserved interview after he got out of the car............

P71
P71 GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
6/20/10 10:22 p.m.
96DXCivic wrote: If I want to watch brightly colored shapes going round and round in a circle, I would flush skittles down the toilet.

Copyright by P71, 2008, all rights reserved.

Wally
Wally GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
6/21/10 12:10 a.m.
David S. Wallens wrote: I'm still working on it, but I have a theory about all that NASCAR hate. Are NHRA Pro Stock cars stock? No, not really, but people don't seem to have a cow about them.

I had started one too after my first trip to Watkins Glen with a busch car. Some guy with an MG was upset that those glorified oxcarts were taking valuable track time from them.

Will
Will HalfDork
6/21/10 6:07 a.m.

My theory is that people don't actually hate NASCAR for its shenanigans. People hate the fact that no one ever calls NASCAR on it, and that so many people accept it and keep watching.

I've been watching NASCAR since 91, though I watch less now than ever. There are a lot of problems with the sport, but nothing that couldn't be fixed by letting real racers in race control.

Otto_Maddox
Otto_Maddox Reader
6/21/10 10:30 a.m.

It all went downhill with Richard Petty's "miraculous" 200th win. Maybe it happened before then, but that is when NASCAR became equated with professional wrestling. Some find it to be good entertainment. To each his own, I guess.

DWNSHFT
DWNSHFT Reader
6/21/10 10:49 a.m.
Streetwiseguy wrote: I sure do love watching them [NASCAR] on the road courses- just like hippos on roller skates. Damn fast hippos, but hippos none the less.

"Hippos on Rollerskates," I love it! And yes, NASCAR on a road course is the best racing in the country. In other words, NASCAR rocks when it's like Australian V8 Supercars.

David

fastmiata
fastmiata Reader
6/21/10 11:07 a.m.

Just recognize that NASCAR has done some good for racing. It is a rigged game and they reward those that play the game. However, it has brought racing out of the closet and made it a socially acceptible activity and hobby. I appeared on a cable show produced in Knoxville and when asked about SCCA road racing, I compared it to the NASCAR races on the road courses and they really liked that.
When I started racing, it was about as acceptible as child molesting.

Moparman
Moparman Reader
6/21/10 11:13 a.m.

I am not an elitist. One cannot have a garage full of old, nearly worthless 80s and 90s Mopars and be elitist. However, I do think that NASCAR is "gimmicky." Competition cautions, lucky dog points and everything else to keep not auto enthusiasts entertained rubs me the wrong way, but here lies the rub.

NASCAR is auto racing for non car enthusiasts. It is designed to intrigue and entertain coach potatoes, soccer moms and Wal-Mart customers. NASCAR sells the driver soap opera, brand rivalry and high drama.

Most NASCAR fans have no clue as to the technology used in building a race car. If a Chevy wins and they drive a Chevy then their car won. Maybe they will go out and buy Goodyear all-season radials because they "must" have the same technology as the race-winning NASCAR tires. NASCAR is a high-speed reality show.

It is not real racing in the traditional sense. Traditionally, racing was about winning and talent and technology and innovation, but that is boring for the average fan. Does anyone really think the average fan cares if the cars look like their street counterparts or share any components? Not at all. The don't even know what is even under the hood of their own cars, except what the salesperson or brochure told them. Road and Track's Sean Bailey told me that performance enthusiasts (those who actually place driving performance at the top of their list of importance) is under 5% of the market.

I often attend cruise events with my 89 Shelby Dakota. I have Yokohama Avid STs on the truck. Most of the cars there have generic "performance tires" with names like "Revenger" (actual observed tire). Most Americans believe the 1970 Chevelle was the epitome of automotive performance. That is who NASCAR markets to, the average American and they do it very well.

Do I think F1, ALMS, Rolex 24 and the SCCA offer superior racing? Yes, but unless you understand the cars and appreciate their particular designs those series can be boring.

Americans want bumping, rubbing, crashes, pit fights and loud noise (which is the main reason NASCAR uses V8s and Americans love Harleys). Sports cars and open wheel don't offer what Americans want. More people drink Bud than drink Magic Hat. Bud gives me nausea.

96DXCivic
96DXCivic Dork
6/21/10 11:24 a.m.
P71 wrote:
96DXCivic wrote: If I want to watch brightly colored shapes going round and round in a circle, I would flush skittles down the toilet.
Copyright by P71, 2008, all rights reserved.

What? I thought that was Mitch Hedburg quote.

AutoXR
AutoXR Reader
6/21/10 11:32 a.m.

I love watching them @ Watkins Glen, looks like a bunch of Monkey's __cking footballs.

Dashpot
Dashpot New Reader
6/21/10 11:48 a.m.
DWNSHFT wrote:
Streetwiseguy wrote: I sure do love watching them [NASCAR] on the road courses- just like hippos on roller skates. Damn fast hippos, but hippos none the less.
"Hippos on Rollerskates," I love it! And yes, NASCAR on a road course is the best racing in the country. In other words, NASCAR rocks when it's like Australian V8 Supercars. David

Couldn't agree more - Bring on more road courses! Make no mistake - those guys can drive.

Slightly off topic -

I saw a footwell shot during practice that showed the driver using LFB all the time with no more heel & toe necessary. Proof positive that the 3rd pedal is getting pushed out of racing altogether. Is the Continental Series Challenge the only pro asphalt series left without dog or sequential boxes?

novaderrik
novaderrik Reader
6/21/10 12:11 p.m.
Moparman wrote: I am not an elitist. One cannot have a garage full of old, nearly worthless 80s and 90s Mopars and be elitist. However, I do think that NASCAR is "gimmicky." Competition cautions, lucky dog points and everything else to keep not auto enthusiasts entertained rubs me the wrong way, but here lies the rub. NASCAR is auto racing for non car enthusiasts. It is designed to intrigue and entertain coach potatoes, soccer moms and Wal-Mart customers. NASCAR sells the driver soap opera, brand rivalry and high drama. Most NASCAR fans have no clue as to the technology used in building a race car. If a Chevy wins and they drive a Chevy then their car won. Maybe they will go out and buy Goodyear all-season radials because they "must" have the same technology as the race-winning NASCAR tires. NASCAR is a high-speed reality show. It is not real racing in the traditional sense. Traditionally, racing was about winning and talent and technology and innovation, but that is boring for the average fan. Does anyone really think the average fan cares if the cars look like their street counterparts or share any components? Not at all. The don't even know what is even under the hood of their own cars, except what the salesperson or brochure told them. Road and Track's Sean Bailey told me that performance enthusiasts (those who actually place driving performance at the top of their list of importance) is under 5% of the market. I often attend cruise events with my 89 Shelby Dakota. I have Yokohama Avid STs on the truck. Most of the cars there have generic "performance tires" with names like "Revenger" (actual observed tire). Most Americans believe the 1970 Chevelle was the epitome of automotive performance. That is who NASCAR markets to, the average American and they do it very well. Do I think F1, ALMS, Rolex 24 and the SCCA offer superior racing? Yes, but unless you understand the cars and appreciate their particular designs those series can be boring. Americans want bumping, rubbing, crashes, pit fights and loud noise (which is the main reason NASCAR uses V8s and Americans love Harleys). Sports cars and open wheel don't offer what Americans want. More people drink Bud than drink Magic Hat. Bud gives me nausea.

those grapes seem pretty sour. maybe you need to stop eating them.

everything you pointed out as being a negative thing about NASCAR can be turned right around and applied to every racing series you used as a counter example. F1 is slightly less boring to watch than Indy cars on ovals, mostly because of all the technology involved. the "superior racing" i've seen in ALMS on tv is a bunch of carbon fiber replicas of Hot Wheels cars trying not to run into each other for 12 hours at a time while being driven by people with names i can't pronounce. i'll report back on SCCA racing after i check out the Trans Am race at Brainerd in September- which i'm very much looking forward to, by the way- since i can't think of any time i've been able to watch SCCA racing of any kind on tv in the last 20 years.

NASCAR is middle class racing for middle class people. middle class American people relate to the people in the cars, because most of the people in the cars came from middle class families that supported their early racing endeavors with middle class jobs. it's racing for people that just want to sit back and forget about the day to day stresses of their lives without investing too much brainpower in thinking too much. in that respect, it's a lot like professional football and, yes, professional wrestling.

look past all the big $$$ sponsorship deals, and each and every owner, driver, and crew member out there is doing it because that's where they want to be and they are doing exactly what they want to do- and they are the very best at it. most of them would be just as happy making no money at some unknown local dirt track.

ask any racer from any other series that has tried to make it in the upper levels of NASCAR if they think the cars are real race cars or if the racing is real. you might be surprised by the answers, but i wouldn't.

with very few exceptions, the people involved grew up going to 1/4 or 3/8 mile dirt or paved circle tracks on saturday night to watch their dad or uncle race. some of them got started in karts or even Legends cars. some of them came from an offroad racing and motocross background (Jimmy Johnson is an example of this). go to a local dirt track and see just how many of the cars in each class have the same paint jobs as their Cup car heroes. and please don't try to tell me that road racers don't also emulate the paint schemes of their road racing heroes...

when they got old enough, they got themselves a real race car of their own and did what they could to work their way up thru the ranks. by the time they get up to the Cup level, they are among the best at what they do- even if they don't look like it on tv sometimes.

Cup cars are real race cars and the racing is real. yes, sometimes they do throw stupid cautions to pull the pack back together and maybe help out one of their golden boys, but there is only so much they could do to fix a race when there are 43 cars out there running at 200mph for 3 hours at a time.

you say that NASCAR is a race series for non auto enthusiasts- and that may be true. but that's only the marketing of it. if someone could figure out a way to get millions of non enthusiasts to tune into ALMS (or whatever your favorite sanctioning body happens to be) races every week and buy ALMS merchandise and paint their cars like their favorite ALMS driver's car and get the car number and autograph tattooed into their shoulder, you'd probably say that racing sucks, too, and find something else to like.

does Rally racing suck because millions of people by officially licensed rally racing video games and drink Monster or Red Bull energy drink? maybe Subaru sells a few cars because of it, too. does motocross suck because millions of kids want to dress like Brian Dungey, Travis Pastrana, or Bubba Stewart? are monster trucks not impressive machines because they have gimmicky paint jobs and truly are marketed towards 5 year old kids that couldn't care less about the technology involved?

Kramer
Kramer HalfDork
6/21/10 1:06 p.m.

It sounds like most NASCAR haters haven't closely followed the short track racing (dirt and asphalt) that goes on probably in their back yard. NASCAR is the big leagues of short track racing. Go find a late model race car (and shop), and then go to a few races. You'll find this kind of racing is very similar to NASCAR--it's what NASCAR used to be (and mostly still is).

Go ask the late model driver (who is also the crew chief and car engineer) to switch to fuel injection. Ask him why he doesn't want to do it. Also, ask him how much of his car is stock, then ridicule him for being stupid and not knowing anything about building a car. See how fast he kicks your ass.

96DXCivic
96DXCivic Dork
6/21/10 1:12 p.m.

In reply to novaderrik:

Dude could you please use capital letters at the beginning of your sentences? I have no clue what your point was because I couldn't stand reading it.

novaderrik
novaderrik Reader
6/21/10 1:49 p.m.
96DXCivic wrote: In reply to novaderrik: Dude could you please use capital letters at the beginning of your sentences? I have no clue what your point was because I couldn't stand reading it.

sorry, but my tiny little NASCAR defending brain can't grasp simple concepts like capitalization.

Appleseed
Appleseed SuperDork
6/21/10 2:24 p.m.

"This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons..."

Moparman
Moparman Reader
6/21/10 2:40 p.m.
Kramer wrote: It sounds like most NASCAR haters haven't closely followed the short track racing (dirt and asphalt) that goes on probably in their back yard. NASCAR is the big leagues of short track racing. Go find a late model race car (and shop), and then go to a few races. You'll find this kind of racing is very similar to NASCAR--it's what NASCAR used to be (and mostly still is). Go ask the late model driver (who is also the crew chief and car engineer) to switch to fuel injection. Ask him why he doesn't want to do it. Also, ask him how much of his car is stock, then ridicule him for being stupid and not knowing anything about building a car. See how fast he kicks your ass.

What backyard. Growing up was all drag racing and SCCA by me in the NYC area. Yes, we like NASCAR, when it had some relevance to our lives and our passions. When the cars began to differ from what we were driving, building and enjoying, stock car racing became a lower-tech (not low-tech) Indy Car racing, nice to watch occasionally, but not relevant.

Dirt track and small paved circle tracks were the domain of the GED set. Seriously I am nit knocking anyone, just telling how it was.

I have even lost interest in Indy. I was never a huge Indy Car fan mind you, but now that it is a spec series, even the 500 holds no interest for me. My SCCA region schedules an autocross the same day and no one even talks about Indy.

I don't hate NASCAR. I have a Bill Elliot / Ray Evernham Dodge banner in my garage, but I take it for what it is, showtime entertainment, and good entertainment at that.

Moparman
Moparman Reader
6/21/10 3:00 p.m.
novaderrik wrote: those grapes seem pretty sour. maybe you need to stop eating them. everything you pointed out as being a negative thing about NASCAR can be turned right around and applied to every racing series you used as a counter example. F1 is slightly less boring to watch than Indy cars on ovals, mostly because of all the technology involved. the "superior racing" i've seen in ALMS on tv is a bunch of carbon fiber replicas of Hot Wheels cars trying not to run into each other for 12 hours at a time while being driven by people with names i can't pronounce. i'll report back on SCCA racing after i check out the Trans Am race at Brainerd in September- which i'm very much looking forward to, by the way- since i can't think of any time i've been able to watch SCCA racing of any kind on tv in the last 20 years. NASCAR is middle class racing for middle class people. middle class American people relate to the people in the cars, because most of the people in the cars came from middle class families that supported their early racing endeavors with middle class jobs. it's racing for people that just want to sit back and forget about the day to day stresses of their lives without investing too much brainpower in thinking too much. in that respect, it's a lot like professional football and, yes, professional wrestling. look past all the big $$$ sponsorship deals, and each and every owner, driver, and crew member out there is doing it because that's where they want to be and they are doing exactly what they want to do- and they are the very best at it. most of them would be just as happy making no money at some unknown local dirt track. ask any racer from any other series that has tried to make it in the upper levels of NASCAR if they think the cars are real race cars or if the racing is real. you might be surprised by the answers, but i wouldn't. with very few exceptions, the people involved grew up going to 1/4 or 3/8 mile dirt or paved circle tracks on saturday night to watch their dad or uncle race. some of them got started in karts or even Legends cars. some of them came from an offroad racing and motocross background (Jimmy Johnson is an example of this). go to a local dirt track and see just how many of the cars in each class have the same paint jobs as their Cup car heroes. and please don't try to tell me that road racers don't also emulate the paint schemes of their road racing heroes... when they got old enough, they got themselves a real race car of their own and did what they could to work their way up thru the ranks. by the time they get up to the Cup level, they are among the best at what they do- even if they don't look like it on tv sometimes. Cup cars are real race cars and the racing is real. yes, sometimes they do throw stupid cautions to pull the pack back together and maybe help out one of their golden boys, but there is only so much they could do to fix a race when there are 43 cars out there running at 200mph for 3 hours at a time. you say that NASCAR is a race series for non auto enthusiasts- and that may be true. but that's only the marketing of it. if someone could figure out a way to get millions of non enthusiasts to tune into ALMS (or whatever your favorite sanctioning body happens to be) races every week and buy ALMS merchandise and paint their cars like their favorite ALMS driver's car and get the car number and autograph tattooed into their shoulder, you'd probably say that racing sucks, too, and find something else to like. does Rally racing suck because millions of people by officially licensed rally racing video games and drink Monster or Red Bull energy drink? maybe Subaru sells a few cars because of it, too. does motocross suck because millions of kids want to dress like Brian Dungey, Travis Pastrana, or Bubba Stewart? are monster trucks not impressive machines because they have gimmicky paint jobs and truly are marketed towards 5 year old kids that couldn't care less about the technology involved?

You say NASCAR is middle class racing for middle class people. What is middle class to you? It is different in different parts of the country. Growing up (and I use that term loosely), a middle class person was someone wo was a policeman, firefighter, mid-level white collar worker or business owner. Even a physician who was a general practicianer or a local attorney (real estate law, etc.) was considered "middle class."

I hate when people bring class into the NASCAR debate. I once knew a mechanic who said: "NASCAR should always be American racing with American cars for American fans." My response was: What's the matter, afraid of the competition?" He had no answer. I think the golden age of racing was the 1960s. Ford competed in Europe, Americans race F1 and foreign cars and drivers came to Indy.

I have nothing against local level circle track racing. At least that is real (although I think engine claim races are a bit red neck). However, they hold no interest for me as the cars, technology and course have no similarity to other parts of my life. For instance, When I autocross, the skills I use transfer to my street driving. My car is a street based car. If I run a tube-framed dirt car and become proficient at counter-steering it has little bearing in my real life (except in the snow).

My ONLY knock against NASCAR is that it is somewhat rigged. Imagine baseball with "competition strike calls" or football with "competition holding penalties." Ridiculous. There are things I do not prefer, such as making cars nearly spec cars and using older technology, but that is my preference, not a criticism.

However, we all must admit that NASCAR is marketed to the same people who think pro-wrestling is quality entertainment, can't wait for the next episode of Desperate Housewives and think Pizza Hut is a real restaurant (or real pizza for that matter).

FYI: I live in NE PA, an area which gave thousands of troops during the Civil War for the Union cause, but whose rural residents are now in love with the Confederate flag.

Thx Tom Sports Fan Dodge Driver Without Class Envy

weconway
weconway New Reader
6/21/10 3:03 p.m.

For me, NASCAR is like redheads. I can understand the appeal, they're just not my cup of tea.

I used to be a hater. Then I ran a LeMons race and tried to not steer into another crapcan at 65 mph. Gave me a whole new respect for the kind of driver that has enough situational awareness to drive a pig of a race car in a pack like they do at 190 mph. That experience taught me that NASCAR drivers are indeed the real deal, perhaps in a different fashion than their peers.

Perhaps that's why they transition to sports car racing so well (as in the 24 at Daytona)? Traffic is another day at the office for them.

Moparman
Moparman Reader
6/21/10 3:07 p.m.

As I was writing me most recent posts I began to become angry. Why do some people believe that class matters. Class is as much a state of mind as it is an economic level. If I don't like NASCAR, hate Bud and think tattoos are crude mean I am a snob? No, just as those who do like my aforementioned aversions are not low class. We are all just different. I also think disco sucks and automatic transmissions are wastes of machinery, but that doesn't mean I want them banned or people who use them demonized. Ok, I want disco banned.

Moparman
Moparman Reader
6/21/10 3:10 p.m.
weconway wrote: For me, NASCAR is like redheads. I can understand the appeal, they're just not my cup of tea. I used to be a hater. Then I ran a LeMons race and tried to not steer into another crapcan at 65 mph. Gave me a whole new respect for the kind of driver that has enough situational awareness to drive a pig of a race car in a pack like they do at 190 mph. That experience taught me that NASCAR drivers are indeed the real deal, perhaps in a different fashion than their peers. Perhaps that's why they transition to sports car racing so well (as in the 24 at Daytona)? Traffic is another day at the office for them.

NASCAR drivers are the real deal as are engineers, constructors, crew and team managers. The only thing that is 100% real is the racing, but that is ok. The racing is secondary to the show. I am cool with that, but it is not my favorite form of motorsport. I do like it better than drifting or motocross. Real bikers run the Isle of Man (let the flames begin!).

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