Wideband o2 sensor/displays

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

m4ff3w wrote: Zeitronix ZT-2. I recently sold it to fund Christmas for my kids, but the unit is great. Further, Zeitronix's customer service is great. I bought the unit used and couldn't get it to work. Zeitronix said to send it to them and let them check it out. It was broken and they fixed it for free, 3 years after the warranty expired.

I was looking at the ZT-2, but it's like... $400. That's not gonna fly. I'm already not REAL pleased that if i replace the LC-1, it's going to likely come at a hit to the challenge budget, so i'm trying to keep that hit as minimal as possible. The ZT-3 could be a contender, but it's got that damn round gauge display again. Price is nice at $270, though, and it does all the same things except run through that LCD display, which i don't really care about.

I bought my used for $250 with the LCD display. I recently sold it for $225 shipped. With their excellent customer service, I wouldn't be hesitant to buy a used one.

Outside of a good source (which I don't have, since the ones I get are, well, not the ones you want...), I do want to make one comment- about the display.

Please, don't rely on that.

Unless you are one of the millions that think texting while driving is ok.

Seriously, unless you are tuning the car on a dyno, the only time the sensor is THAT critical is when you are in the middle of some very high load condition, over a wide band of engine speed. Please find a way to log the data so that you can look at it later.

I'm asking nicely.

(and there are some logging options if you are willing to do some assembly- we made one from parts)

Eric

m4ff3w wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

m4ff3w wrote: Zeitronix ZT-2. I recently sold it to fund Christmas for my kids, but the unit is great. Further, Zeitronix's customer service is great. I bought the unit used and couldn't get it to work. Zeitronix said to send it to them and let them check it out. It was broken and they fixed it for free, 3 years after the warranty expired.

I was looking at the ZT-2, but it's like... $400. That's not gonna fly. I'm already not REAL pleased that if i replace the LC-1, it's going to likely come at a hit to the challenge budget, so i'm trying to keep that hit as minimal as possible. The ZT-3 could be a contender, but it's got that damn round gauge display again. Price is nice at $270, though, and it does all the same things except run through that LCD display, which i don't really care about.

I bought my used for $250 with the LCD display. I recently sold it for $225 shipped. With their excellent customer service, I wouldn't be hesitant to buy a used one.

Yeah, i was trying to get together funds for the one that you sold but had to pass. Wish i had tried a bit harder, now.

alfadriver wrote: Outside of a good source (which I don't have, since the ones I get are, well, not the ones you want...), I do want to make one comment- about the display. Please, don't rely on that. Unless you are one of the millions that think texting while driving is ok. Seriously, unless you are tuning the car on a dyno, the only time the sensor is *THAT* critical is when you are in the middle of some very high load condition, over a wide band of engine speed. Please find a way to log the data so that you can look at it later. I'm asking nicely. (and there are some logging options if you are willing to do some assembly- we made one from parts) Eric

Oh i'm not going to rely on that, it's more going to be used as a "I hope i notice that all of a sudden i'm seeing 20:1 AFRs and shut the car down" kind of deal.

Logging is taken care of on this setup, it's really just the display that i'm having the biggest issue with right now. While i'm not saying that i'm going to always have my eyes glued to it, i'm not going to drive this thing any longer without at least having the option of knowing what's going on. It's been too heavily modified, it's old, it has archaic electronics, blah blah blah.

But i agree with you. That's why i've got warning lights on my boost, oil pressure, and water temp gauges, so i don't have to keep glancing at them.

m4ff3w wrote: http://14point7.com/SLC-Pure-Plus.php

Um. Wow.

What's the catch?

$225 shipped for that including sensor?

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

Good.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: Good.

Actually i lied, i don't have a warning light on my boost gauge. My boost controller actually has a built-in warning light and buzzer.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

m4ff3w wrote: http://14point7.com/SLC-Pure-Plus.php

Um. Wow. What's the catch? $225 shipped for that including sensor?

There was alot of buzz around the internets a few years ago about the guy that makes/designed those. JAW is what it was called then (Just Another Wideband), this and the SLC is the current evolution of it.

yeah I forgot to mention JAW, they were kinda low-rent and required some assembly/calibration but it is by far the cheapest option, back then it was like sub $150 when everything else was $350-400...

You are correct on the wiring, it's that straightforward, red to +12v off ignition, black to ground, grey to ECU narrowband (put the capacitor on, it'll clean up the signal for your ECU, I believe we have it on ours for MS). The 'plug' just plugs into the O2 Sensor, done. It'll probably take you 30 minutes to an hour to get all your wires run, that's honestly the most annoying part...

I'm not saying the PLX is the best option, but for what it does, and how easy it is to install, and not require any calibration, IMO the price is worth it.

As far as using it for a 'oh E36 M3' meter it's actually quite good, we don't watch it but it's in our field of view and there were times when we were doing our base tune when the 'dancing numbers' would peg and it goes solid LEAN or RICH or if warm and no-gas, i.e. cutoff condition (we would stall on decel when we were first getting MS working) it'd say AIR. So you really couldn't miss what it was telling you.

Raze wrote: yeah I forgot to mention JAW, they were kinda low-rent and required some assembly/calibration but it is by far the cheapest option, back then it was like sub $150 when everything else was $350-400... You are correct on the wiring, it's that straightforward, red to +12v off ignition, black to ground, grey to ECU narrowband (put the capacitor on, it'll clean up the signal for your ECU, I believe we have it on ours for MS). The 'plug' just plugs into the O2 Sensor, done. It'll probably take you 30 minutes to an hour to get all your wires run, that's honestly the most annoying part... I'm not saying the PLX is the best option, but for what it does, and how easy it is to install, and not require any calibration, IMO the price is worth it.

Oh i didn't realize that it was the same people that did JAW. Seems they've come a long way, huh?

I doubt it'll take me longer than 5 minutes to get the PLX in and soldered and powered up to be honest. I ran barrier strips/jumpers, one for power, one for ground, and mounted them on the side of my center console. Makes for a nice, clean (but not hidden, looks race-car-ish!), and simple install. Glad to know it really is just that easy, though. Big difference from the 7-wire LC-1 i've got. I honestly think i've got every bit of 20 solder connections going on between the LC-1 and display.

I

One thing nice about the AEM is that in addition to the digital display, it has a sweep around the diameter that has green, yellow, and red. So you can easily monitor green = good in your periphery. Also - it can be set to a couple of different fuels, as well as set to read straight Lambda (which is how I have it set up).

What's the lowest it'll read? (Seems like a strange question, but i noticed the "11" on the gauge, and i know my car will dip low 10s/high 9s.)

On the gas setting, I'm guessing 11. I don't know. I don't run mine that pig-rich. :)

I do know that the digital readout has a wider range than the sweep, but I'm not sure what it is.

EDIT - found the instructions - Range on the DRO = 10.0 - 18.5

http://www.schnitzracing.com/manuals/AEMWBK.pdf

DILYSI Dave wrote: On the gas setting, I'm guessing 11. I don't know. I don't run mine that pig-rich. :) I do know that the digital readout has a wider range than the sweep, but I'm not sure what it is. EDIT - found the instructions - Range on the DRO = 10.0 - 18.5 http://www.schnitzracing.com/manuals/AEMWBK.pdf

Mine ran that on factory maps, not much choice here. (unless/until i go megasquirt, but i'm out of budget right now for that)

I could deal with 10:1 i think. Anything much lower than 9 should start to run like dog E36 M3 or blow huge clouds of black smoke anyways.

That was one redeeming quality of the LC-1... seems it can read down to 7.4:1.

One other note to make- all of the systems that display what they think is air-fuel ratio is actually normalized to gasoline. So if you are running E10, and it says 14.7, that actually means less.

The actaul correlation is with lambda (or gamma, depending on your language), so stoich is stoich for gas, E10, E85, or whatever devlilish fuel you come up with. It would be a lot easier if the sensors ran a 0-2 rating for lamda or gamma, since that's what they really sense.

Anyway, carry on. Some cool aftermarket options out there. And I sometimes wonder why certain companies don't go after them, as the technology inside the little box is actually patented. I won't turn anyone in, but I do know one of the guys who developed that.

E

Off topic, but I really love GRM forums.

m4ff3w wrote: Off topic, but I really love GRM forums.

Me too. Everyone/where else i asked all i got was "AEM IS DA BEST!!11!1!!one!1!!!" (No offense meant to Dave.)

They didn't give any reasons. I can only assume that they got it because it's what their friend uses, and their friend uses it because one of his friends uses it, and so on.

alfadriver wrote: One other note to make- all of the systems that display what they think is air-fuel ratio is actually normalized to gasoline. So if you are running E10, and it says 14.7, that actually means less. The actaul correlation is with lambda (or gamma, depending on your language), so stoich is stoich for gas, E10, E85, or whatever devlilish fuel you come up with. It would be a lot easier if the sensors ran a 0-2 rating for lamda or gamma, since that's what they really sense.

I run mine on a straight Lambda readout. It's easier for me rather than having to think about conversion factors. Idles right around 1.0 Lambda, and richens up to ~.85 Lambda under throttle and/or boost.

alfadriver wrote: One other note to make- all of the systems that display what they think is air-fuel ratio is actually normalized to gasoline. So if you are running E10, and it says 14.7, that actually means less. The actaul correlation is with lambda (or gamma, depending on your language), so stoich is stoich for gas, E10, E85, or whatever devlilish fuel you come up with. It would be a lot easier if the sensors ran a 0-2 rating for lamda or gamma, since that's what they really sense. Anyway, carry on. Some cool aftermarket options out there. And I sometimes wonder why certain companies don't go after them, as the technology inside the little box is actually patented. I won't turn anyone in, but I do know one of the guys who developed that. E

Ah ok, so THAT'S why the lambda conversion factors are out there. I honestly did not understand that for some reason.

DILYSI Dave wrote:

alfadriver wrote: One other note to make- all of the systems that display what they think is air-fuel ratio is actually normalized to gasoline. So if you are running E10, and it says 14.7, that actually means less. The actaul correlation is with lambda (or gamma, depending on your language), so stoich is stoich for gas, E10, E85, or whatever devlilish fuel you come up with. It would be a lot easier if the sensors ran a 0-2 rating for lamda or gamma, since that's what they really sense.

I run mine on a straight Lambda readout. It's easier for me rather than having to think about conversion factors. Idles right around 1.0 Lambda, and richens up to ~.85 Lambda under throttle and/or boost.

+elvinfinty.

(although, if I knew the key stroke to the infinity symbol, I would use it)

Anybody know anything about this new one from Innovate? Sure looks easier to wire up than the LC1.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTXL.php

Clay wrote: Anybody know anything about this new one from Innovate? Sure looks easier to wire up than the LC1. http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTXL.php

Looks like a direct competitor to the AEM Uego with a couple more features. Some of them useful, some of them not.

I do like the easier calibration method of that one. But it's still obnoxious that this one requires it when others don't, and haven't for years.

I've used most, and I've been most impresssed with the NGK AFX using the NTK sensor. It has a smaller lean range then some of the others, but for most people it's not a concern. Its the one that most closely matches the Motec PLM that my local dyno shop has. All the units that use the LSU4.2 have read a bit rich compared to the Motec unit. I'm not a huge fan of the case/display of the AFX but it sounds like it'll work for you.

Clay wrote: Anybody know anything about this new one from Innovate? Sure looks easier to wire up than the LC1. http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTXL.php

We just got a sample in from Innovate. I was pretty surprised at how tiny it is, and the wiring is a lot simpler than an LC-1 (it'll work with just one power and ground wire - there's also two analog outputs and a dimmer. No separate calibration wire.). The electronics bear very little relation to the LC-1 internally, but are related to the LM-2. We're pretty excited about them.

Paul_VR6 wrote: I've used most, and I've been most impresssed with the NGK AFX using the NTK sensor. It has a smaller lean range then some of the others, but for most people it's not a concern. Its the one that most closely matches the Motec PLM that my local dyno shop has. All the units that use the LSU4.2 have read a bit rich compared to the Motec unit. I'm not a huge fan of the case/display of the AFX but it sounds like it'll work for you.

That's the one with the black box display that looks somewhat like a "Gizzmo" brand boost controller?

Buddy had one and it looked cool, but he was always complaining about it. Don't remember why, i'll have to ask.

I was looking at them last night. The look is right, i just need to make sure it does the rest of the stuff i need before it really becomes a contender.