A couple old teaser shots:
A couple old teaser shots:
In reply to SVreX :
These guys are running a very-$$$ 914 rally car in NASA Rally. IIRC the car has a turbo'd porsche flat-6 in it. I recall him saying that it was putting down well over 350hp (which isn't worth much in rally, but that's another story).
irish44j said:Driven5 said:I can't say that I would ever consider doing it to an air-cooled Porsche... But I have thought about doing it to an S197 Mustang from time to time.
IIRC the biggest issue those guys have is that they can't fit 15" wheels on the car, and so can't run gravel rally tires - so they have to use all-seasons or snow tires for rally. If this is the car that competed in STPR in 2016 (I thought that one was silver, but I could be wrong) it was very very slow since they had to be careful using street tires.
I know they're not actual rally tires, but are all-terrain tires really that bad for general rally type use too?
Of course, the term 'Safari cars' makes me think of this:
I like safari cars and find them, if properly built, to be fantastically practical. For all the “if they made this...” talk, I want a new outback sedan. Then again, I was looking at factory SRT4 springs for my first gen neon as they drop in and lift the lighter car a little bit.
I like the look, and would like to go a similar route with my rx7.
Driven5 said:irish44j said:Driven5 said:I can't say that I would ever consider doing it to an air-cooled Porsche... But I have thought about doing it to an S197 Mustang from time to time.
IIRC the biggest issue those guys have is that they can't fit 15" wheels on the car, and so can't run gravel rally tires - so they have to use all-seasons or snow tires for rally. If this is the car that competed in STPR in 2016 (I thought that one was silver, but I could be wrong) it was very very slow since they had to be careful using street tires.
I know they're not actual rally tires, but are all-terrain tires really that bad for general rally type use too?
I can't say firsthand, having not used them. One local e30 runs BFG A/T KOs (in the smallest size) at rallycross sometimes (but usually gravel rally tires). I think the one issue is that the sidewalls on most A/T tires really aren't very strong/stiff so they're just as vulnerable to punctures as any other street tire. True story - my Sequoia tow rig, on Dueller Revo A/Ts, got a flat from running over a razor blade, of all things.
Rally tires are damn near indestructible, and can keep on going even if flat for some distance.
In winter events we use street snow tires, but you do have be be way more careful in the really rough areas to not get a flat. I would assume A/Ts are probably better than those in dry or muddy conditions, really.
For something like that Mustang, which has the power to turn big/heavy wheels and tires, I guess they'd probably work fine. Those guys run 'em, so they'd know better than I do. Looks like they ran that car at STPR in 2015 (I wasn't there that year), so it's not the Mustang I was thinking of. It's strange, they're shown on the start order (almost at the very bottom) but not in the results for either STPR regional - so maybe they never actually ran the car, IDK.
Cool thread that deserves more love. Here in Baltimore the roads are just slightly worse than the roads in Kabul after a really harsh winter. I have sports cars, and they beat me senseless. So senseless, in fact, that I have been thinking that a Mustang Safari build would actually make sense. Lots of steel tubes, some nasty tires, and a slight lift. And lots of lights. I'm thinking this is just what I need--something that squeegee kids would be afraid to approach...
Driven5 said:irish44j said:Driven5 said:I can't say that I would ever consider doing it to an air-cooled Porsche... But I have thought about doing it to an S197 Mustang from time to time.
IIRC the biggest issue those guys have is that they can't fit 15" wheels on the car, and so can't run gravel rally tires - so they have to use all-seasons or snow tires for rally. If this is the car that competed in STPR in 2016 (I thought that one was silver, but I could be wrong) it was very very slow since they had to be careful using street tires.
I know they're not actual rally tires, but are all-terrain tires really that bad for general rally type use too?
Yes.
Rephrasing your question: "Are all season tires really that bad for general road course use?"
californiamilleghia said:I once found the rock "with my name on it" and cracked the engine case in my 1967 bug.......look about 10 quarts of oil to get it home !
But back to Rally look cars , most are built like something from Monte Carlo rally , public roads and forest paths etc
But then you get the Paris to Dakar , or London to Sydney type races and you get what looks like overbuilt cars like the one above with the front to back roll cage......
I would build something in the middle, kick the suspension up a few inches , larger diameter tires to fit the larger radius custom wheel wells , skid plates , lots of lights and push bumper "Roo Bars"....
Same thing would look great on s 240z , Datsun 510 , early Volvo , BMW 2002 etc
Just remember you are driving a clown car and will gets lots of looks every time you take it out , this can be good or bad !
But just have fun. That's what it's all about.....
..
I always figured a rock that would stop a bug would probably just about total anything else that size. Bugs are know for being tough. But you already knew that.
AaronBalto said:Cool thread that deserves more love. Here in Baltimore the roads are just slightly worse than the roads in Kabul after a really harsh winter. I have sports cars, and they beat me senseless. So senseless, in fact, that I have been thinking that a Mustang Safari build would actually make sense. Lots of steel tubes, some nasty tires, and a slight lift. And lots of lights. I'm thinking this is just what I need--something that squeegee kids would be afraid to approach...
how are steel tubes and lights gonna help with the roads? ;)
My otherwise-stock GTI I just put taller tires on the stock-size wheels with no suspension changes. Still fits just fine, just fills in the wheel gap and makes the car look "lowered" even though it's actually sitting taller. Most stock-setup cars can accommodate taller sidewalls thanks to excessive OEM wheel gaps.
nutherjrfan said:back to the Farah reference which is where I first discovered this phenomenon. I'm pretty sure he mentioned D.C. and it's awful roads.
Leaving the style aside. How in Gods name do I even begin to think about beefing up my little E36 M3 box? It'll never take any tight corners at any speed. I don't eff with decreasing radius on ramps although I do occasionally dart in traffic if that would be an issue with a more 'rally' style suspension.
I'm actually buying into Farahs argument about it being more attuned to our local govts penchant for digging potholes rather than filling them.
ok I added that last point. I don't actually believe the local municipality digs potholes. maybe.
I know this is a zombie thread and I already commented several time, but just wanted to add:.,
Most actual rally cars have substantially *stiffer* springs than stock......my (actual) stage rally car front springs are almost double the stock rate (rears about 50% higher). It handles at least as well as a stock e30, and that's with no swaybars at all.
Later noted in the thread about a rally car being "more comfortable" etc. Actually ,no. As noted before, stiffer springs, stiffer valving. Actual rally cars are pretty uncomfortable at slow speeds in most cases (except guys with really high-end setups).... They're set up to eat up bumps at higher speeds (i.e. race speeds). My e30 in DC is by far the least comfortable ride of anything I own - including my 924S on +1 wheels.
For comfort and "rally-look" (if that's what we're calling a suspension lift + big tires.....I thought that was just redneck look), you just want taller stock-rate springs or thereabouts with stock-ish valving. Not a rally/gravel suspension.
Also, these guys with only one tire on the roof are weaksauce. If you're gonna go rally look, do it right........
Driven5 said:I know they're not actual rally tires, but are all-terrain tires really that bad for general rally type use too?
I know the question was asked 9 months ago, but: It is my understanding (which may be incorrect) that All Terrain tires aren't meant to handle lateral loads at speed. The sidewalls are generally made to flex way more than rally tires, so they can grip odd surfaces or give a larger contact patch on sand. Actual Baja-type Trophy trucks use bead-lock rims to hold the tires on.
This guy is probably going a speed measured in single digit MPH at most.
Rally tires would probably stink for rock crawling.
this might be the look my saab 900 turbo needs
Brett_Murphy said:Driven5 said:I know they're not actual rally tires, but are all-terrain tires really that bad for general rally type use too?
I know the question was asked 9 months ago, but: It is my understanding (which may be incorrect) that All Terrain tires aren't meant to handle lateral loads at speed. The sidewalls are generally made to flex way more than rally tires, so they can grip odd surfaces or give a larger contact patch on sand. Actual Baja-type Trophy trucks use bead-lock rims to hold the tires on.
This guy is probably going a speed measured in single digit MPH at most.
Rally tires would probably stink for rock crawling.
correct. rally tires are extremely stiff. Even off the rim, you can stand on the sidewalls and they hardly flex at all (I'm 175#). When they're flat, they don't really look very flat. In rally, guys run them at 20-25psi pressures and don't have debeading problems often.
all-terrains are totally different in construction and made to have soft sidewalls. Gary DeMasi runs all-terrains on his Rally Ranger and it seems he debeads a lot, even with beadlocks. Usually causing him to wreck........by comparison, in 9 years of stage rally and rallycross, I've NEVER debeaded a competition gravel tire, even running at 23psi.
irish44j said:nutherjrfan said:back to the Farah reference which is where I first discovered this phenomenon. I'm pretty sure he mentioned D.C. and it's awful roads.
Leaving the style aside. How in Gods name do I even begin to think about beefing up my little E36 M3 box? It'll never take any tight corners at any speed. I don't eff with decreasing radius on ramps although I do occasionally dart in traffic if that would be an issue with a more 'rally' style suspension.
I'm actually buying into Farahs argument about it being more attuned to our local govts penchant for digging potholes rather than filling them.
ok I added that last point. I don't actually believe the local municipality digs potholes. maybe.
I know this is a zombie thread and I already commented several time, but just wanted to add:.,
Most actual rally cars have substantially *stiffer* springs than stock......my (actual) stage rally car front springs are almost double the stock rate (rears about 50% higher). It handles at least as well as a stock e30, and that's with no swaybars at all.
Later noted in the thread about a rally car being "more comfortable" etc. Actually ,no. As noted before, stiffer springs, stiffer valving. Actual rally cars are pretty uncomfortable at slow speeds in most cases (except guys with really high-end setups).... They're set up to eat up bumps at higher speeds (i.e. race speeds). My e30 in DC is by far the least comfortable ride of anything I own - including my 924S on +1 wheels.
For comfort and "rally-look" (if that's what we're calling a suspension lift + big tires.....I thought that was just redneck look), you just want taller stock-rate springs or thereabouts with stock-ish valving. Not a rally/gravel suspension.
Evan got some Bilsteins revalved to what some people who rallied Miatas worked out was a good rate. It was so stiff it broke my GPS mount, and was generally completely unpleasant for ride quality for rough roads around town.
Granted, it was frickin' awesome at 50-70mph, but it was too stiff for bumps to want to move it at low speeds.
Knurled. said:t some people who rallied Miatas
AFAIK, there is only one person who rallies a Miata in the US, and it only ran a couple NASA events (Miatas are not legal for ARA), and to my knowledge it was on off-the-shelf stuff. Or are there others up in Canuckistan or something?
Not sure what ever happened to this one. I don't think the Black Flag guys are still running this or their other car these days. I think it only did one, maybe two events.
Also funny to compare an *actual* stage rally Miata vs all the "rally-look" Miatas. Where's the Paco lift? 
In reply to irish44j :
Convertibles with hardtops were briefly legal in Rally America.
Knurled. said:In reply to irish44j :
Convertibles with hardtops were briefly legal in Rally America.
I was curious, so I asked in one of the rally community groups, full of old guys who've been around forever, been on the rules committees, etc.
Just for the sake of posterity - Everyone stated pretty clearly that one Miata (owned by Chuck Cox) applied for an exemption to the rules with Rally America, but was turned down by Kurt, and that no Miatas ever ran in RA or it's predecessor (RallyCar). Apparently Randall Zimmer also had a rallycross miata with a cage and hardtop which he intended to run in RallyCar (the early iteration of RA), and it may or may not have gotten a logbook, but nobody seems to think it was actually allowed to ever run a stage rally, nor remembers it doing so. Now that I have the discussion ongoing, and both those Miata drivers have been tagged, might find out more about what the deal actually was
Apparently verts with hardtops were legal in SCCA Rally back in the day since Jeep CJs ran in there.
In reply to irish44j :
Interesting. I dimly recall someone petitioning for convertibles to be legal so he could rally a Miata, which came to pass, and (again, IIRC) the car was run for like six months before he stopped, and the exemption was revoked.
It WAS quite a while ago... heck it may have predated R-A for all my memory serves. Anyway, point stands regarding the suspension tuning.
(I also briefly drove Chris Greenhouse's Neon on the street at Sno*Drift to transit it from here to there while Chris was off doing recce or something in his street car, and I don't know if it was the subzero temps or just the DMSs' valving but it didn't feel like they were moving much, either)
You'll need to log in to post.
