Would you buy an electrified Miata?

MX-30 rotary generator drivetrain in a Miata?

jharry3 said:

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

jharry3 said:

The $7500 rebate out of our tax dollars given to EV buyers is only the first of a list of reasons for me to to stay away from EV's.   

I don't think we should be enabling this social engineering with tax dollars.   

Let the market decide what to buy at the full price it costs to sell with a profit.   If EV's can complete then great.  Make a million EV's.

Don't the manufacturers also get some kind of tax or carbon credits for building EV's?  Even more tax dollars redistributed from many to a few. 

Hopefully I didn't cross the political line here but those are my thoughts.

Cool, I can get on board with this.  If we also rescind all the subsidies to fossil fuel companies, which more than triple the EV tax credits and are permanent rather than temporary.  If we want a level field, let's have a level field.

To the original question- if they turn out to by hybrids as Keith describes, then I would love to own one.

I'm with you on that.  Corporate Welfare needs to be cut everywhere.  We are speeding towards Corporatism de facto.

Yes all the corporate welfare should be used to benefit everyone.  I'm sick of paying taxes to make big shareholders richer.  

frenchyd said:

STM317 said:

I think that sound and shifting your own gears are important parts of the 2 seat sports car experience. If the electrified Miata still has those components then I'd be on board.

If the goal is to commute cheaply, then hybrids or BEVs are great. If the goal is to set the fastest quarter mile or lap times, then they're great too (at least for awhile). But if the goal is to appeal to your emotional side and form a connection that sparks joy and makes you want to just go for a drive down a windy road, that's where EVs seem like a bit of a let down. Nobody buys a 2 seat sports car solely to commute, or tow things, or take the family on long trips. It's a toy that's meant to put a smile on your face. The communication that comes with well tuned steering, and a crisp manual shifter that allows you to interact and engage with the powertrain with multiple senses at the same time is critical.

I'm about as serious a gear head as there is.   I build V12 race cars and love working on my MG TD.   
   But they are toys.    
     Transportation?   I want cheap!!!!!  
              So I have money to play with my toys.  

Right, but a Miata is a toy. It's a small, dedicated 2 seater focused on driver engagement. It doesn't haul anything. It can't tow or carry your family. And there are better options if a cheap commute is all you desire. Nobody is buying a Miata for those purposes, so discussion of the benefits of EVs as a commuter seem off topic to me.

It's fine to espouse the benefits of EVs, but this discussion relates specifically to whether an impractical, 2 seat sports car will be better or worse with some amount of electrification. In other words, would you want one of your "toys" to be electrified?

Would an electrified Miata mean that the manual transmission would go away? Obviously it would with a full EV, but what about the mild-hybrid? I know the original CRZ hybrid had a manual option but most (all?) other hybrids since then do not. I'm not interested in an automatic transmission Miata. 

I'd prefer the Miata stay ICE, but if it had to be "electrified" I think a mild hybrid assist type setup would work to keep the weight/simplicity low, as well as the character. Not like we have a choice in what the manufacturer's do but if it was an EV Miata, I'd rather they just call it something else and kill off the Miata name.

I think it all comes down to involvement.  Pretty sure I've read that Lexus and Koenigsegg are both(independently) designing and evaluating prototype  "manual" shifting options for their future hybrid and/or BEV offerings. We all still love driving manual vehicles with drive by wire, electric power steering, and all manner of computer-assisted control whether it be traction, suspension, or braking. At this point we've got plenty of fun vehicles that give you the thrill and sensation of control, but are likely as close to being a gaming sim rig as they are to being a classic sports car. My point is, whoever delivers an engaging way to replicate the full sensory experience of the manual sports car—or something just as compelling—will happily convert a surprising amount of diehard enthusiasts.

CrashDummy said:

Would an electrified Miata mean that the manual transmission would go away? Obviously it would with a full EV, but what about the mild-hybrid? I know the original CRZ hybrid had a manual option but most (all?) other hybrids since then do not. I'm not interested in an automatic transmission Miata. 

If anyone's going to stick with a manual trans for the driving experience, it'll be Mazda. Although based on what I'm seeing of the used RF market, the customers are buying lots of automatic Miatas new. And it's the new car customers who get to call the shots. But the Miata is likely to be the last car on the market with a stick, as Mazda has always prioritized the experience over sheer performance for the model.

I can't think of a technical reason why a hybrid couldn't have a manual trans. It's really just a different form of power adder if you squint. It would be really dumb to put a manual in a full EV, it would be an expensive exercise in inappropriate engineering and parts selection. Leave it to Konisegg :)

Manual transmissions are such an archaic thing, really. They give the driver the opportunity to select the wrong gear and to mess up clutch engagement. Driven perfectly, they're as good as a good computer controlled trans. They don't really bring anything to the table. But we do love them :)

On the point of charging EV's at the track:

Imagine if all cars on track were EVs...you would have to be able to fully recharge a full session's worth of cars in one session's time.  Say, 30 cars in 30 minutes.  Or have enough changers to do 60 cars in 60 minutes (assuming a three-group rotation).  90 chargers could service 90 cars in 90 minutes, using a four group rotation.  That's a hell of an investment for a track...

At Cali tracks, where tracking an EV is most prevalent, there are already re-charging challenges.  "Gas lines" are back!

Keith Tanner said:

CrashDummy said:

Would an electrified Miata mean that the manual transmission would go away? Obviously it would with a full EV, but what about the mild-hybrid? I know the original CRZ hybrid had a manual option but most (all?) other hybrids since then do not. I'm not interested in an automatic transmission Miata. 

If anyone's going to stick with a manual trans for the driving experience, it'll be Mazda. Although based on what I'm seeing of the used RF market, the customers are buying lots of automatic Miatas new. And it's the new car customers who get to call the shots. But the Miata is likely to be the last car on the market with a stick, as Mazda has always prioritized the experience over sheer performance for the model.

I can't think of a technical reason why a hybrid couldn't have a manual trans. It's really just a different form of power adder if you squint. It would be really dumb to put a manual in a full EV, it would be an expensive exercise in inappropriate engineering and parts selection. Leave it to Konisegg :)

Manual transmissions are such an archaic thing, really. They give the driver the opportunity to select the wrong gear and to mess up clutch engagement. Driven perfectly, they're as good as a good computer controlled trans. They don't really bring anything to the table. But we do love them :)

I just thought of a reason you won't see a manual transmission  on hybrids .     Starting. 
  When the battery runs low the starter is automatically engaged. 
 

frenchyd said:

I just thought of a reason you won't see a manual transmission  on hybrids .     Starting. 
  When the battery runs low the starter is automatically engaged.

What starter? Every hybrid that I'm aware of has an electric motor connected to the crankshaft in some manner. They just use that as the starter.

I would hope Mazda tries to stay close to what the miata is, small, lightweight, rwd.  I think I have heard it has one of the highest manual transmission sales as well, so I would hope that they still offer a manual.  A 48 volt mild hybrid would be pretty easy, dodge & bmw have both used belt driven motors for mild hybrid.  Plug in hybrids are allowed under the coming ev regulations so it may make more sense to go that route.  A motor between the engine & transmission like Honda used would work with a manual.

A big plus would be battery management that would allow prolonged track use without overheating.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with. Mazda does try to make the Miata engaging to drive and that's a wrinkle that they will have to spend some time on. A mild assist hybrid of the alternator or flywheel replacement type could make the engine feel disconnected from the throttle with poor stop/start control and and excessive rev hang, oooooooor-it could make it rev like a formula 1 car. The same system could be used to make an undersized engine with a flat torque curve that has no point in chasing the revs, oooooor- it could be used to fill the low rpm void left behind by an engine that rewards you with continually building HP the higher the rpms go. It will be fun to see.

As a baseline, the ND Miata is 2,345lb with a 0-60 in 5.7 seconds.

The 2021 BMW i3 weighs in around 2,900lb. 0-60 in 6.6 seconds (on super eco tires).
It has about 150 miles of range from a 42kwh battery. It's probably the lightest commercially available EV produced so far; possibly the lightest German car in a decade or so.

The Chevy Bolt weighs 3,600 and gets 259 miles from a 65kwh battery with 0-60 in 6.5 seconds (on eco tires).

I give those examples for what's possible on a "light" EV. 

I would not be surprised if Mazda could package ~20kwh of battery with their small range extender rotary and end up around 2,800lb with 50 miles of EV-only range and a 0-60 time better than 5.5 seconds. I know from my old Mazda3 they can make a car of that weight handle well and be pleasant to drive.

As a current Volt owner I would love to be a buyer of such a PHEV Miata. However at this moment I need 4 seats for my family, but a 4 seat version of that concept with the same performance at 400-600lb heavier would get me back into a Mazda. 

How much of the nature of the Miata  is a remembrance  of the Lotus Elan it originated from .   I'd better be very careful here.  I am not saying they  copied the Lotus Elan merely that was its inspiration.  In my humble opinion that is very high praise indeed. 
     To me a hybrid simply cannot be in the nature of the Lotus Elan.   
     Yet a pure EV could give the same sense a Lotus Elan gave.  That nimble, light, free feeling.  
    Not like a scaled down Tesla model S plaid.  Which while brutally fast and respectable handling.  Lacks that light free feeling the Miata  offers.  
A very long time ago   I drove an early automatic, which yeh, left me wanting the manual.  Until I was making my way through Southern California traffic.  Hours upon hours of stop and go traffic,  bumper to bumper.  
    EV's are designed for that!