WTF is Ford smoking?

irish44j wrote:

forzav12 wrote:

irish44j wrote:

thestig99 wrote: $30k is pretty loaded, they start around 25....

so, same as a WRX, which has AWD and considerably more power.....About the same as Mazdaspeed3, which has considerably more power. I like the Focus ST, but they could have done more with it to make it truly competitive in the segment. This is America....power sells.

The Ford destroys the Mazda-every mag that has both together agrees-as do I. Much nicer than the WRX and better handling-yes, thats right. I guess top of the segment isn't "competitive" to you?

I was referring to sales. Is the Focus ST out-selling the WRX and MS3? My reference was to the fact that people see power numbers, and it helps sales. Why the Focus ST weighs same as WRX/MS3 but has lower power numbers.....that can affect sales to the people who buy based on comparitive numbers (and you know a LOT of people do). It's not hard to give it 266hp and say "it's more powerful than a WRX" or whatever. As to performance....I DO like the Focus (normal and ST)....but I live in a place with 4 seasons and work at a ski shop. I'll keep my AWD. If I lived in the south, I probably would have something RWD. That's the reason I passed on an MS3 in the first place.....AWD vs. FWD.

Sales? Really? the car has been for sale about 15 minutes now, how could it possible have better sales at this point?

I don't know about the new GTI - I really stopped paying attention to them when they went to the A2.

I've heard good things about the Focus ST, but after reading this thread I realize I need to see some pics of the interior.

As a WRX owner, the mileage sucks and it requires premium fuel. The styling, like all styling, is subjective, but I would mostly describe the WRX as ugly. I just wanted an AWD non-SUV and the idea of nearly 300 turbocharged Hp appealed to me.

I test drove a MS3 when they first came out. Thought my MSM was way more fun. The MS3 is a Mazda version of a WRX minus the AWD. I don't see the point. Why put up with similarly ugly styling, similar poor mileage, and FWD? I guess if I lived somewhere else where AWD wasn't a plus for half the year when it is winter, I could see getting an MS3 maybe.

forzav12 wrote:

irish44j wrote:

forzav12 wrote:

irish44j wrote:

thestig99 wrote: $30k is pretty loaded, they start around 25....

so, same as a WRX, which has AWD and considerably more power.....About the same as Mazdaspeed3, which has considerably more power. I like the Focus ST, but they could have done more with it to make it truly competitive in the segment. This is America....power sells.

The Ford destroys the Mazda-every mag that has both together agrees-as do I. Much nicer than the WRX and better handling-yes, thats right. I guess top of the segment isn't "competitive" to you?

I was referring to sales. Is the Focus ST out-selling the WRX and MS3? My reference was to the fact that people see power numbers, and it helps sales. Why the Focus ST weighs same as WRX/MS3 but has lower power numbers.....that can affect sales to the people who buy based on comparitive numbers (and you know a LOT of people do). It's not hard to give it 266hp and say "it's more powerful than a WRX" or whatever. As to performance....I DO like the Focus (normal and ST)....but I live in a place with 4 seasons and work at a ski shop. I'll keep my AWD. If I lived in the south, I probably would have something RWD. That's the reason I passed on an MS3 in the first place.....AWD vs. FWD.

Sales? Really? the car has been for sale about 15 minutes now, how could it possible have better sales at this point?

do you lack the ability to think in the future tense? when half the advertisements on TV for cars tout how they have "more horsepower than [xxx competitor] can you honestly say that power numbers mean nothing for sales? I guess all those marketing people that get paid millions of dollars to market to the masses are all idiots, eh?

People here on GRM think the greatest cars in the world are fairly low-powered (miata, e30, etc). I would tend to agree (as an M10 e30 owner). But the non-enthusiast masses say "hey that car has more power for the same price, so it must be better."

And yes, I'm "really" talking about sales.

And if I was talking about performance, I'd say to show me a "magazine comparison" out in the rain or snow of the ST against the WRX and we'll see which performs better then......Mag tests are nice if you live in the southwest, but most of the country actually has weather. And there is a difference in how an AWD and FWD car perform when the road gets slick.

I don't think anyones mind is going to get changed but I hope we can discuss this without people digressing into name calling

ST - 252hp,270tq, 15 second overboost(15lbft tq) , 2960 lbs, 27k for the mid range model with recaros nice stereo etc just not nav/hid/leather, 23/32mpg

WRX 265hp,244tq, 3241lbs, 25.7k for the base model, 19/25mpg

So you get AWD for a not as nice interior, much worse gas mileage, less torque and 13 hp, and 300lbs??

Jaynen wrote: Do you actually think you are going to change someones mind?

do you?

I'm pretty sure nobody on the internet is ever wrong or ever changes their mind, no matter what evidence is presented (myself included).

doesn't mean we can't discuss things.

beats watching election coverage.

In reply to irish44j:

I've not seen one thing that the intention of the Focus ST is targeted at the WRX.

Just sayn.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to irish44j: I've not seen one thing that the intention of the Focus ST is targeted at the WRX. Just sayn.

No idea . The WRX/GTI/MS3/Ralliart, and to some extent the Civic Si and a few others have for years been matched against each other in the sub-$30k sport compact market, mag comparos, etc. I would assume that the ST also falls into that general category, wouldn't it?

All those cars above were what I cross-shopped when I eventually bought the wrx. And if the ST was around then, I would have definitely cross-shopped it too. But maybe that's just me.

irish44j wrote:

Jaynen wrote: Do you actually think you are going to change someones mind?

do you? I'm pretty sure nobody on the internet is ever wrong or ever changes their mind, no matter what evidence is presented (myself included). doesn't mean we can't discuss things. beats watching election coverage.

I agree :P and no I don't I hadn't participated yet but was surprised at the err tenacity of some of the posts

In reply to irish44j:

ST isn't a rally car, and isn't marketed as such. So not head to head WRX and whatever the Ralliart is. If consumers put them together, well, that's their option.

MS3, GTI, SI- more likely- FWD sporty hatch cars.

As for sales, we will see. I'm not planning on getting one, at the moment.

(OTOH, I'm not aware of any production restrictions, ala SVT stuff- the engine is very far from unique- being in an Escape, Edge, Fusion, Explorer, etc.)

I had an SVTF, was awesome but yeah glad to see the ST isn't a unique snowflake of an engine

Jaynen wrote: I agree :P and no I don't I hadn't participated yet but was surprised at the err tenacity of some of the posts

it's this damn election night....everyone's blood is up ;)

And since I'm waiting out Virginia (don't ask me why), I'm just on here typing.

I don't think there has been any name-calling though

alfadriver wrote: In reply to irish44j: ST isn't a rally car, and isn't marketed as such. So not head to head WRX and whatever the Ralliart is. If consumers put them together, well, that's their option. MS3, GTI, SI- more likely- FWD sporty hatch cars. As for sales, we will see. I'm not planning on getting one, at the moment. (OTOH, I'm not aware of any production restrictions, ala SVT stuff- the engine is very far from unique- being in an Escape, Edge, Fusion, Explorer, etc.)

fair enough, though I don't really see subaru marketing the wrx as a "rally" car much these days, and everyone I know with a GTI, MS3, or similar car always says things like "I almost got a WRX" or "I almost got xxx car" when sitting around talking about cars. Drivetrain setups regardless, I think the similar power, price, size, and target demographic of all these cars makes them natural direct competitors. Several people in this very thread (other than me) have said they cross-shopeed them. IDK.

Ironically, isn't the Focus pretty prevalent in rally circuits these days? Perhaps moreso than late-model subarus even?

Just priced one out, came out to just shy of 28k with the few options I would select. At that rate I'd just opt for the next option package that gives you the fancy shmancy radio/nav and hid headlights. I live in the middle of nowhere and good headlights are a big time bonus when it comes to dodging critters. I'd look at it, but dang that's hard to swallow.

Jaynen wrote: I don't think anyones mind is going to get changed but I hope we can discuss this without people digressing into name calling ST - 252hp,270tq, 15 second overboost(15lbft tq) , 2960 lbs, 27k for the mid range model with recaros nice stereo etc just not nav/hid/leather, 23/32mpg WRX 265hp,244tq, 3241lbs, 25.7k for the base model, 19/25mpg So you get AWD for a not as nice interior, much worse gas mileage, less torque and 13 hp, and 300lbs??

yep, that sounds about right.

Is that what the rating is? I drive the crap out of this car, in tons of DC traffic, and my average tank is in the 24-25 range. I've never, ever gotten worse than 21 on a tank in 80k miles. And the car consistently gets 28-29mpg highway cruising. If that's what the EPA rates the WRX, those new fender flares must really kill mileage or something Now I have to go out and dig up my window sticker and see if that's what it says too!

Interior is subjective. I actually like the interior on my WRX far better than that of my wife's Mazda3 (granted, it was an '05 model). These are my favorite stock seats of any car I've ever owned, hands-down. It ain't a GTI interior, but it's not exactly a Plymouth Reliant either

Jaynen I've not seen the WRX reported as that heavy nor the Focus ST that light. Got sources.

Knurled wrote:

SlickDizzy wrote: Much like the FRS/BRZ, if you haven't driven one, you're missing about 90% of the point.

Picture it: America, 1989. "Why should I pay $12,000 for some piddly 110hp Miata (whatever that made-up word is supposed to mean) when I could get a Mustang LX with a V8 and 5-speed? The Mustang has twice the power, more rubber on the road, and bigger brakes!"

Aaaaannd what's each of them worth today?

nocones wrote: Jaynen I've not seen the WRX reported as that heavy nor the Focus ST that light. Got sources.

As someone who used to spend a lot of time on subie forums, that WRX weight sounds like it's in the ballpark. Mine was weighed at 3212 lbs in stock form (with stainless SPT exhaust but lighter wheels) back around when I bought it.

Fordstnation.com lists the ST as "TBD"

Interestingly, that site also says "Key Competitors It's a good time to be in the market for an affordable, compact-sized performance machine - If the Focus ST isn't for you, strong alternatives include the high-revving Honda Civic Si, the all-wheel-drive Subaru Impreza WRX and the refined Volkswagen GTI."

ft86.com in a comparo with the FRS/BRZ lists the ST weight as 3223 lbs, but who knows where that number is from.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=536278

also shows the ST running a 15.1 second 1/4 mile....which is considerably slower than a MS3 (mid-13s) or WRX (mid-low 13s), if that matters to anyone.

The 25k WRX also was totally base I think with only the 16" wheels.

Honestly I love'd evo's and WRX because of loving rally but I can't get over their "It's as bad as an E39 M5" gas mileage numbers

My SVT focus always felt a lot lighter than WRX's and could outbrake them on the track stock for stock even though they had the exact same brakes on them

In reply to Jaynen:

Unless things have changed for this year, the WRX only has come with 17" wheels since 2008. And they've gone from 215/45/17 in 08 to 225/45/17 in 09 to 235/45/17 tires in 2011+, with 17x7.5 stock wheels (IIRC).

I could be wrong, but I don't recall ever having seen an 08+ WRX on 16s.

Since when did mag comparo's pull off mid-13's in a MS3.....

Its all subjective.......people are generally going to buy whatever they please, if you buy a car for the 12hp only, you're either a mindless person or a frat boy(most people I see with wrx/sti/ft86)...... Each vehicle pulls a different crowd of the segment.

Personally, if I were in the market to drop money on something new......I'd probably bring home a Regal GS 6sp. I did the whole thing with the "Boy racer" styling when I had the Ion Redline, and did get sick and tired of being singled out in traffic by police. Scoobies aren't subtle.......period. The Regal seems to fill the void left by the MS6, which was essentially a hoonmobile for people who wanted to remain lowkey.

Javelin wrote:

Knurled wrote:

SlickDizzy wrote: Much like the FRS/BRZ, if you haven't driven one, you're missing about 90% of the point.

Picture it: America, 1989. "Why should I pay $12,000 for some piddly 110hp Miata (whatever that made-up word is supposed to mean) when I could get a Mustang LX with a V8 and 5-speed? The Mustang has twice the power, more rubber on the road, and bigger brakes!"

Aaaaannd what's each of them worth today?

About $1000.

I'd still rather have the Abarth then the Focus or WRX. Fiesta ST might be worth a look.

In reply to irish44j:

What you should have said was that the ST isn't being marketed. Outside of the dirves that occasionally have popped up, I've not see one single ad for it. that being said, I did see a bunch of them at a dealer when I was getting stuff.

Focus has been very out there for Rallying, but for the small problem that Ford just pulled full factory support from rallying....

pinchvalve wrote: The reviews that I have seen has the ST faster on track than the WRX or MS3, and better to drive on the street. I like it, but the boy-racer interior is a total turnoff to me. Swap in a VW GTI interior and you have a perfect ride.

Lucky for you (I am 99% certain) the entry level ST comes with the standard Focus sport seats, that are black and gray, not black and yellow.

I like the ST (a lot). From my perspective, pricing is one of the the biggest issues facing this car. One of the main issues is that the Recaros are part of a $2500 option package, and the second option package adds $4.4K to the sticker! For that price, you get things like HIDs and the Recaros are full leather as opposed to partial.

At $24k, there's a lot of value - at $30K, I'd be looking elsewhere. It's going to have a lot of comparisons made with the Mustang GT at that price level, and the GT is one heck of a car. I'm curious to see how the sales play out. My biggest fear is that Ford gives us a great hot hatch and it just isn't viable financially, so they kill it (Mustang SVO, Focus SVT).