WWGD: Right of Way

On my drive into work this morning, a situation came up which I'm sure you're all familiar with. In my direction, 2 lanes of traffic going straight, stopped at a light. In the opposite direction, a car making a left hand turn in front of me at the front of the pack with his signal on, clearly blocking 20 other cars that want to go straight. This intersection has no left turn lane or arrow.

When the light changed, the car next to me clearly intended to wait for the left turner so he could clear the lane for everyone behind him. Seeing everything set up perfectly like this, I still chose to go. Not to be a dick, but because I am a firm believer in observing right of way at all times and never doing anything unpredictable on the road that could lead to a potential accident.

Now, in the couple of seconds I had to think about it before the light turned, I couldn't think of a scenario where yielding would have caused a problem. However, I later remembered a time when I was young where in a similar situation a car yielded and waved my brother out, only to have another car change lanes from behind and t-bone him.

Having lived in MA, I understand some regions expect the left turner to jump the signal each and every time, but that doesn't happen here in VA.

So, what would GRM do?

With two lanes in your direction, I would never wait and yield my right of way to a left turner in that situation. If there was only one lane my direction and there was an obvious backup behind the left turner, then I would consider it and maybe sometimes wave them through.

If I have the pole position at a light and there is a long line of cars behind me, I take it as my responsibility to get moving as soom as the green comes on to try to allow as many other cars to get through the light on that cycle. I've had more than a few near encounters with people trying to make their left turn ahead of me and they have been surprised and sometime annoyed that they've been forced to yield to me. I've come to complete stops in the middle of intersections so as to not hit them in their passenger side doors.

You were not being a dick, you were doing your duty as the pole position guy at the light.

I would do the same as you did, no question. I drive through a similar intersection on my way home from work, except usually people are trying to turn across the intersection from both directions. I always try to get in the right lane so I'm not stuck behind the turners. I don't think I've ever seen anyone wait...

And from the perspective of that left turning, I really don't like it when the other person yields their right of way to me. Sets me up in case there is a crash. Not an uncommon scam/game here either.

If its single lane each way, idk. Double lane each way, aww hail naw. Waving them on then them getting t-boned is an instant lawsuit against you these days.

Don't encourage others to ignore the rules of the road. We have enough of that trouble already.

The 'correct' choice is the one that has the lowest probability of causing an accident, followed closely by the one encourages the most efficient overall flow of traffic. Ideally these should be one and the same. I would typically say that means to just go, but as described in this particular case it sounds like letting them turn first may have been justifiable in addition to being courteous.

You are exactly right. 'Breaking' right of way rules confuses people, generally holds more people up than it saves time for (see confusion), and causes crashes (see confusion - and your example where BOTH lanes are unlikely to break the same rule at the same time, therefore the guy who is following the rules ends up at fault t-boning someone he cannot see and should NOT be coming across at all).

Very similar to pedestrians. Very often people are hit because the car in the close lane stops for the pedestrian and waves them on, the ped starts walking across the street, and then is hit by a car going the same direction in the next lane. The vehicle that stops is actually in perfect position to block both the pedestrians view of oncoming drivers in the next lane AND the oncoming driver's view of the sidewalk and any potential pedestrians. If you stop for a ped, block their view of the road, wave them on, and then they get hit by a car - are you really doing them any favors?

What can we learn here?

• Don't break right of way to let people go (you did it right)
• definitely don't wave someone on if you do (driver or pedestrian)
• absolutely don't trust another driver's wave on signal.

Interestingly, I am seeing more and more of this where people stop against right of way to let someone through incorrectly. And I am seeing less and less people stopping before an intersection at a green light when traffic is backed up on the other side to let the other direction through when their light invariably turns red (like they actually should).

P.s. Thank you for doing the right thing. This is one of my bigger pet peeves. And I sound like a grumpy old man.

In my province, if the guy turns left as the light turns green(essentially jumping the light, even if directed by you), it's considered street racing. Huge fine, vehicle impounded. Plus if you waited and guy behind you went and hit you, you could be at fault. Or at least partly.

You did what I would do.

Armitage wrote: ...I am a firm believer in observing right of way at all times and never doing anything unpredictable on the road that could lead to a potential accident...

This, every time.

What an interesting question. Here in Greater Appalachia the "pole position driver" is usually texting, or what ever, and doesn't know the traffic light has changed until someone blows their horn. But that doesn't mean the guy/girl turning left, turns left. That person is texting too. Unless of course the driver in either scenario is an old fart like me. Those of us who actually drive are usually the ones blowing our horns.

Of course when the traffic light turns from green to yellow, it's another story. Mr/Ms dawdler stomps on the accelerator and flies through the yellow, now red light. Thus leaving those behind to wait for another light cycle. And yes, considering where we are, accidents and on occasion gun-play can occur as a result.

Driven5 wrote: The 'correct' choice is the one that has the lowest probability of causing an accident, followed closely by the one encourages the most efficient overall flow of traffic. Ideally these should be one and the same. I would typically say that means to just go, but as described in this particular case it sounds like letting them turn first may have been justifiable in addition to being courteous.

Respectfully disagree; if there are others waiting behind the left turner wanting to do the same, a real cluster ensues as drivers in different lanes may do different things, increasing the probability of an accident.

I think the OP did the safest thing given our established rules; I've lived in CA, AZ, IL, and TX, and "local habits" generally follow the established "law" in each of the places I've lived.

If there's a long line at the intersection waiting and someone coming opp direction wants to turn left at a business, then I can see letting him through. I'm all for courteousness.

Left turn person should pull into the intersection, wait for traffic to clear, and then continue their turn once the road is clear, usually when the light is turning yellow.

I had my 1967 122s Volvo T-Boned by a guy who jumped the light. The person in the left lane (2 lanes, I was on the right) was slow leaving the line, and the guy who hit me tried to jump the light to make his left. I was pissed, and he was at fault because I clearly had right-of-way.

Never ever break the right of way. You just make a mess of things and Ruin It For Everyone. Yes, my wife and I yell "RIFE!!" at people who do this type of thing.

T.J. wrote: **If I have the pole position at a light and there is a long line of cars behind me, I take it as my responsibility to get moving as soom as the green comes on to try to allow as many other cars to get through the light on that cycle**. I've had more than a few near encounters with people trying to make their left turn ahead of me and they have been surprised and sometime annoyed that they've been forced to yield to me. I've come to complete stops in the middle of intersections so as to not hit them in their passenger side doors. You were not being a dick, you were doing your duty as the pole position guy at the light.

Seriously... why can't you be the guy in front of me when I'm at the traffic light on the way home??!

I would also go with the right of way. Like others said, there's no guessing for anyone.

Are you saying the guy remained stopped under a fresh green light to allow a oncoming left turner through?

Nope, the left turner can do his thing on the upcoming yellow light. Now if you blow through a yellow with people waiting in the intersection to go left, then you're an shiny happy person of the highest caliber.

I've seen far too many asshats BEHIND the "lone" left-turner also try to turn left using the car in front as a blocker.

Too risky to be the nice guy sometimes simple as that.

It's natural to want to be nice (or, at least, it should be) and let someone through so they don't have to wait, but the rules of right-of-way exist precisely so that we can make some reasonable assumptions about what our interactions with the other drivers will be. If there's a lot of traffic backed up, I would probably pull away from the green light a little slowly in the event that the oncoming left turner might try to jump the light a bit both to kind of give them a chance as well as to protect myself in the event that they have more hopes than horsepower or traction. I would definitely sit and wait behind the line if I couldn't make it all the way through the intersection, but I wouldn't make any sort of signal or gesture to the other driver -- if they think they can make it, fine, but I'm not going to lead them to peril that I might not see.

Flip side is that when someone decides to "be nice" and improperly yield right of way to me, I will typically just sit in my spot and wait for them to clear the intersection. That can turn into some interesting name-calling and questioning of both my parentage and my relationship with my mom, but we have a pretty good system for determining who gets to go at an intersection and I don't think we need to try to "improve" upon it.

Only time I'd give the left-turner the courtesy go is if the traffic past my light is backed up anyhow, so I wouldn't be going far. This is my everyday commute, and I wave plenty of people turning through, if only because I'm only gonna get 20 feet past the light anyhow before stopping for the next light (here in Va., they don't like to time the lights to be green together

Apart from that situation, though, the left turner can wait. And if worse comes to worse, they can go straight and find a place with a left-turn arrow.

Armitage wrote: Having lived in MA, I understand some regions expect the left turner to jump the signal each and every time, but that doesn't happen here in VA. So, what would GRM do?

In LA, where there are very few left turn signals, the SOP is to pull into the intersection and turn left as the light is turning red.

Don't try that in Florida; your passenger would get an SUV in his lap.

In reply to Mitchell:

I was under the impression pulling into the intersection waiting to complete a left was SOP nationwide. Even in Detroit you can do that and have a reasonable expectation to not get hit by inattentive cross traffic jumping the gun, though the Michigan left system pretty much eliminates left turns on any intersection big enough to have a light.

I would have done as you did. Right of way rules exist for a reason, and people who take it upon themselves to re-write the rulebook are inconsiderate jerks who create an unnecessary hazard! It isn't broken, don't "fix" it! The best things you can do for other road users is to be consistent and be decisive.

FWIW, in Oregon it is illegal to enter an intersection (even on green) unless you can clear the intersection, left turns included. It isn't always practical to abide by this rule and make it through an intersection, and most cops won't pull you over unless you cause gridlock. Even so, when traffic is heavy and/or traffic enforcement is heavy, I will sometimes err on the side of caution and make a right, right, right around the block rather than a risky left turn at an intersection without a left turn lane.

It blows me away how many idiotic drivers out there can't think on their feet and can't reroute to deal with local traffic conditions. Instead, they create a hazard, run the light, cut across lanes, whatever it may be to turn HERE instead of going down a block or two.

Kenny_McCormic wrote: In reply to Mitchell: I was under the impression pulling into the intersection waiting to complete a left was SOP nationwide. Even in Detroit you can do that and have a reasonable expectation to not get hit by inattentive cross traffic jumping the gun, though the Michigan left system pretty much eliminates left turns on any intersection big enough to have a light.

I hail from Florida, where traffic is funneled into much larger artery streets that are much more likely to have a red left turn arrow.

In that exact situation I would probably do the same thing, although imo that configuration is obsolete and dangerous in areas with alot of traffic, so if I know of a place where that situation occurs often I will avoid it if possible.