Looking at trail bikes???

My son has saved his pennies and has $1500 saved towards his first dirt bike. He's 13, 5'6", 115, and growing. He has ridden an electric shift 4wheer but never a dirt bike and never a clutch. he does do a lot of mtn biking and is athletic so I don't worry too much about balance. 
 

We went to a local dealership to get an idea on height. The Honda CFR 100 and the Yamaha and Kawasaki 110s are too short for him. We looked at a 08 CFR CFR150 yesterday that had it looked like how it was described  I wouldn't be posting right now...  But I'm seeing lots of 125s in his price range, very few 150s, and more 225-230s than 150s. I thought the right size would be 150 but I just don't know. 
 

Am I wrong in assuming we can find a good 150 for $1500?  And would a 225-230 be to big engine wise for a beginner? Seat height wise they seem to be fine, I'm worried about too much power. 
 

I don't mind traveling for the right bike, but Knoxville is a weird area where prices are higher than anywhere else. We drove almost 2 hours to look at the CFR150 yesterday because everything around here seems high. I travel all of TN, western NC, and north GA for work. 
 

I came to the hive for help. 

At that size he needs a full-size bike. Those 150s, 225s/230s 4-strokes do not make much power at all. I'd actually recommend a KDX200 or 220. Or an older Yamaha WR250 4-stroke. Or a KLX250/300. None of them are fire-breathers. They are all also more durable than the 225s/230s. Anything that isn't motocross-grade (besides power and suspension) doesn't really hold up well for anything but pure play by very light riders. They cheap out on a lot of stuff. All the bikes I recommended are motocross-based even if they are based off of 1989-2002 motocross bikes.

I have not ridden a dirt bike since the mid 90s, so I cant be of much help.

I started on a '90 Honda CR80 and then upgraded to a '93 Yamaha YZ80. Those two strokes were a hoot. The stuff I did, I am glad my dad never found out :)

Are they all 4 strokes now?

I agree. If you can find a really nice KDX200 he could ride it for years. They still pop up in very good condition. At 13 he will quickly outgrow a 110 or 150. And a two stroke is simple, cheap and reliable.

Edited to say my 23 year old son still enjoys his KDX175 and I dont mind riding it either, but not as torquey as the 200's. They were and still are awesome trail bikes.

In reply to octavious :

I'm a 125 stalwart but  200cc two strokes are good bikes. I have 20+ years of trail riding 125s and as long as you don't mind the constant shifting they are fine.

Note the constant shifting is why I love them. 

So this is somewhat my area of expertise. And I also happen to be 5'6", though a little heavier.

You said your budget is $1500. You're not going to get anything that's been suggested unless it's beat to E36 M3. There's nothing wrong with one of the little 4 strokes for a beginner, and he is only 13. If you buy right you'll get your money back when you decide it's either not for you, or when you're ready to upgrade.  The bigger 225-250 trail bikes are not likely too much power, but you're going to be in tough trying to find one in your price range.

Is he an aggressive type rider who would be interested in more power, or would the lesser power of the 125 4 stroke be OK to start? I'm a very experienced rider and have been shopping the little 125 4 strokes lately to build another pit/trail race bike, and I'm OK with the power. It's the 16/19 wheel bikes I'm talking about, and they're not too small for his height and weight, especially for a beginner. The 225/230/250 trail bikes are full size with 18/21 wheels.

For the 125 trail bikes, there is the TTR125 which is an OK bike but they can have transmission problems with a lot of hours. The CRF 150 's are heavy but well supported and usually significantly more expensive. The DRZ/KLX125 are both Suzuki but with different plastics and IMO the best value. They have the best engines, are as well built as any of them and more reasonably priced than the Yamaha or Honda. Kawasaki has the KLX140 as well but it will be out of your price range.

For the 225-250 bikes you may be able to find an older DR200. If you see an XR200, and I'm seeing them in that range here, have a good look before you buy. They have a great reputation (that I don't think is particularly well deserved) but if not well looked after do not stand up well. The motors are underpowered and not nearly as durable as the DR's

Edited to add: Whatever you decide, do it now before the spring. At least locally, prices have been insane the last few years and have finally settled to the point where there are actually quite a few OK deals out there. That will go away in the spring

Thanks guys .

I've never had good luck with two strokes, so we are only looking at 4 strokes. 
 

I've seen the TTRs 125-230 for sale for $1500, a couple CRF150s, not many Kawasakis, and 3-4 DRZ125 and one DRZ 250. After that everything is over $2k or close to $2500.

They have been making these for years going back to the 60s. From the early CT-50s to the current CT-125 they must have made a million of them.

I should have been clearer, my 13yo has saved $1500 to purchase his bike. 
 

I won't start liking for mine until after he gets one. 

octavious said:

I've seen the TTRs 125-230 for sale for $1500, a couple CRF150s, not many Kawasakis, and 3-4 DRZ125 and one DRZ 250. After that everything is over $2k or close to $2500.

You can't go wrong with any of those,  so go with the one that's in the best overall condition. 

Bikes vary so much in price from region to region that I was hoping some of my suggestions would be within reach within 300 miles. Wasn't sure how firm things were on price. Seems like XR250s used to be all over the place cheap but strangely it seems they have vaporized. Maybe they weren't as available as I thought.

Thought about a china bike? 

/insert china bike hate here.

Seriously though. I picked up an Orion RXB250L last spring, I'm ~3800 all in for a street legal dirt oriented street legal bike registered for 2 years with a suspension re-valved and sprung for my weight. Did I spend a month wrenching on it when it was delivered? yes. It was office art for a month till I got it tagged. But that gave me time to go through it strip it completely down, loctite every bolt on the frame, adjust the valves, swap jets on the carb (they come stupid lean for emissions reasons, like every other bike), add anti vibe inserts to the handlebars (not needed, but I had them), Actual bark buster hand guards, seat concepts seat (a little carving on a KTM kit) and hydraulic clutch conversion. I ride with guys who ride the spectrum of bikes (KTM, Husky, Beta, big 4 jap manufactures) every one of them that have ridden it have stated for the amount I've got in it's awesome. Lighter than the Japanese bikes, but heavier than the euro offerings. 

When I laid it down last year and snapped the shift shaft I was able to get the parts within 2 weeks. (one ordered off alibaba, and the other off ebay. Zongshen motors are everywhere now) Doesn't have the insane top end of the KTM/Husky/Beta, but for the single track and woods riding we do it's plenty of power.  I even got nutty with it and geared it WAY down (it's begging for mercy at a gps verified 70mph on the road) but it will pop the front tire with 280lbs of me/gear/etc on it in first with the throttle, and a weight shift and slight clutch pop in second. (not a speed demon so I've not tried it in third as of yet) 

Point is, they have a 125 with a 16/19" wheel combo for 1399 delivered with a 28" seat height. Or a 190 rated for twice the power and a 5 speed vs 4, and a 32/33" seat height for 1899 delivered. I'm thinking about picking up one of the 190's for playing in the sand, or may just pick up a used 150 2 stroke for a bit more.  90lbs lighter than the 250.  (LOTS of sand here in FL, and it's one of the contributing factors to my lay down last year)

Orion is the only one I've dealt with. Bit of a pain to deal with because you have to email just about everything, but they do their best to make it right. I ordered mine unassembled because I knew I wanted to go through it bolt by bolt a few were missing, and I had them with spares in a few days after I emailed them about it. (loctite, and witness marked every bolt) But GPX formerly Pitster, also has a rep for doing what needs to be done to take care of their customers, (kinda nice emailing about a part for a motor and the company owner answers your email, and reaches out on facebook) and they sell some NICE machines. Their 300 4 stroke with the twin cam head is heck of a motor. Bike's no slouch either, definately more capable than myself currently. Their prices get close to the big 4, but I'm seriously considering dropping 10k on a 450 rally next year, especially if we end up moving to Colorado (fingers crossed on that one, SWMBO is on her second round of interviews for the position out there, that comes with almost 3x the paycheck she currently brings home).

Kid I ride with occasionally has a 250 Titan, bit smaller frame than my Orion, but same motor, he ordered his off amazon for ~2k. He has almost 2k miles of street and trails, rear tire is about worn out, he's already had to put a chain on his, but he's a LOT harder on his bike than I am. Stock sprockets on his, and he can cruise at 60-65 without worrying about it to much. Mine with the gearing change is much more comfortable at 50-55. 

If you like to tinker, these china bikes are a dream come true, as you have to modify just about any part you want to put on it accessory wise. I checked my valves after the first ride, and had to adjust them, checked at 100, 500 and 1000 miles with no change. They're air cooled bikes for the most part, so I change the oil about once a month or every 3-4 riding weekends (3-5 hours a weekend usually, sometimes more) stop by the car wash on the way home, spray it down, grease ninja to lube the chain when I get home, shut the petcock off and idle it till it sputters out and put it away till next weekend. I clean my air filter every other week when I'm riding. (sand and mud). I've got my shock out getting professionally lowered. When it get's back I'd be glad to let anyone check it out if you're near Tampa. 

Interesting on the China bikes, you are the second person to suggest those to me. 
 

I've got two friends that ride here, but both do more motor cross than trail. They both have and both suggested a 2 stroke for him.   I've had bad luck with 2 strokes.  Does anyone know how much different the 2 and 4 strokes are maintenance wise? 
 

thanks

I didn't recommend a Chinese bike because I didn't think you'd be able to get something decent in your price range. I'm 50/50 at this point whether I'll go with a China pit bike or build a Jap trail bike for my latest project.  Some of the China bikes are pretty decent these days and represent good value, but I don't think the better ones are at that price point yet. Apples to apples, two strokes are typically less maintenance, more reliable and cheaper and easier to work on. The problem is there really aren't any modern two strokes that compare to the small four stroke trail bikes, with the possible exception of a KDX 200/220, but the newest one you'll find is almost 20 years old now and they typically command more than they're really worth, IMO. As far as MX bikes go, hands down, two strokes are the most reliable, cheapest, and easiest to maintain. 

You'll do half to a third as many top ends on the lightly-stressed KDX200/220 as you would a 125 2-stroke MX bike. So if it was doing top ends all the time keeping you away from 2-strokes keep in mind that low RPM makes for a long life.

And a 13 yr old beginner trail rider can easily go 100 hours on a 125 MX top end. Which costs under $200 and takes a leisurely few hours 

That's right around the age/size I outgrew my XR80 and bumped up to a four-stroke XR250L--the thought being I would have only been on the intermediate size bike for a year or two, so the bigger one wouldn't need to be replaced as quickly. I started on it with most of the street-legal stuff removed, then put it back on when I turned 16 and got my license so my dad and I could connect trails and ride further than we'd be able to on bikes that weren't street legal.

It worked out pretty perfectly and while the bike started out feeling a bit big for me, I figured it out within a few months and realized it wasn't a bad thing to learn some technique instead of just being way larger than the XR80 and forcing it through stuff. 

One caveat: I'm not sure how I would feel about starting as a small kid on a big bike with zero experience. I think that depends on his general attitude/level of caution, but you will be strapping a 13-year-old on something that can hit 70 mph without any effort on their part. 

octavious said:

Interesting on the China bikes, you are the second person to suggest those to me. 
 

It really depends on what he wants to do with it. Trails or MX?

The orion staff race their 125/190's. I know of at least one GPX 110 that is still racing with a young rider on it, and has been for a few years.

As much as I hate them, I love them. Ktm makes a fine bike. Most of the maintenance issues are well documented. You're going to pay through the nose for it, but you should be able to ride it for a few years and take a relatively small hit. If you're just doing MX the 85sx is a "mid size" and a 125 2 stroke is full on nuts. (had been riding dirt for 8 months, when I got to ride one for a bit)

Cheapest KDX I've seen was 2k and that was a year ago, sadly it was gone before I could get off work and jump on it. 

Baby DR 250/350 would be a fair trail bike. Good luck finding one for less than 2k. Old school tech like non inverted forks, CV carbs.

Keep your eyes peeled for a cr/crf they come up, and parts availability is usually pretty good, but they also seem hold their value. Heck I've recently seen trail 70/90 that were being sold for nearly 3k.

Region helps find better deals. FL we ride pretty much year round, so bike prices are stupid. Best trade in offer I've gotten for my 14 690 duke with 14k miles is 2k and it's been well taken care of. Dealers are asking MSRP or higher on 2 year old units with miles on them. 

Keep your eyes peeled for a cr/crf

Used 4 stroke race bikes are not a great idea, but don't even consider a used Honda 4 stroke race bike.

Yeah hard no on a like 2009 250F MX that you spot for $1500-2000. 4-stroke MXers are bullets unless you can do a full rebuild yourself. Then even the parts are $2K+ if it needs a crank. Bare heads can be $1000.

I grew up on 2 stroke Yamaha Enduros.

If you can find one, that is what I would get.

I've got a 2000 XR200 that I built for myself a few years ago that I would sell within your budget. It's got XR250 suspension so has a front disc brake. I rebuilt the forks and the rear shock is damping/compression adjustable. Engine was over bored with Wiesco piston, rebuilt crank and new crank bearings, etc. At 67 years old, It's probably not too smart for me to keep taking those sweet jumps, so I really don't ride it enough to justify keeping it. I may be too far away for you (Manning, SC). PM me for more details if interested.

NedC I sent you a message. 

Sounds like a good fit.

So a plan was hatched and I met up with Ned this past weekend to get the XR200. Ned is a solid dude, and ripped around on the XR way faster than I would be comfortable doing at this point. In true GRM fashion I helped Ned clean out his shed of all the extra parts for the XR, loaded them all up and headed out. We had one more day in SC before heading home so I unloaded it at my buddy's and went for a ride with my son. It was awesome. Thanks again Ned.