I know a lot of college grads that plan on retiring in their 60s. I know a lot of tradesmen that retired in their 50s and make extra cash when they feel like it.
I know a lot of college grads that plan on retiring in their 60s. I know a lot of tradesmen that retired in their 50s and make extra cash when they feel like it.
It's quite possible to get a 4 year degree without digging yourself into a hole. Just because some people do doesn't make it the norm. Average earnings over time for holders of a degree still outpace those who don't.
Trades are falling because there are no tech schools anymore. Adults said they didn't want to pay for them with their taxes and now *poof* they're gone.
In reply to Robbie :
16 years ago someone asked me (I was a CNA working in the ER at the time) what my dream job would be if money were no object. I described almost exactly that: “handyman for an estate”. Within a year I transferred to the maintenance department of my hospital and spent my days doing essentially that. Hang a picture, replace a ceiling tile, fix a door. Only as a federal employee getting all the good federal employee benefits. It isn’t a bad gig.
I hope my kids will look into trades when there the appropriate age, I don't want them to automatically assume they wouldn't enjoy it. I sometimes wish I would have learned something other then auto mechanics. Factory maintenance while hard work is one of the biggest fields around here. Background in plumbing and electricity is the easy way in. My father in law quit plumbing to go to work in the maintnence field for better benefits. He still easily clears 100k a year in an area wear the average income is closer to 30k
Robbie said:I've often thought that a GREAT retirement side-gig would be a neighborhood handyman....
Also a common description for one of those guys that killed all those people... or kidnaped all those kids... 
As mentioned previously, the people that commonly do such things are less then top drawer type people. More the reason why a reasonable person could be successful at this of course.
Here in Texas, if you want to make serious money....HVAC. As many hours as you want to work. A true money printing machine. Young guys can enter the business and be making well over 100k per year before their mid 20s.
HVAC has significantly fewer "poop is everywhere" calls also.
SVreX said:Your reference to “criminal” is true, but harsh. The only crime he’s committed is tax evasion. Anyone who has ever received a cash payment without reporting it, or transferred an open car title to a buyer without ever having put the car in their name is also guilty of the same. Tax evasion. That covers most people in construction, and most people on this forum.
I am not excusing it, but I am recognizing it as an uncomfortable reality.
As far as the truck, tools, and company time, that’s not a crime. It’s a company perc. The company sells commercial and industrial plumbing services. They need to have a plumber available on call at all times to provide those services. They are completely aware that this guy does residential work on company time. When they call, he drops what he is doing and responds. That’s his job.
You don’t have to run your business that way, or like what they do. But it is the way the industry works, and is completely legit.
I would hesitate on saying most of us have committed tax evasion...
As for the double dipping, besides being grounds for dismissal from most any company I can think of, it seems like an ethics issue as well. Maybe his company is OK with it but that seems pretty unusual to me.
ProDarwin said:SVreX said:ProDarwin said:Meanwhile, this is one isolated case. Take a look at average plumber salaries. I think this may answer the question you posed in the original post.
https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Plumber/Hourly_Rate
Those are average reported W2 salaries. That’s not reality.
I don't see anything about W2 in those links. The first specifies its from survey respondents.
I'm betting any of those 3 better represents what the median plumber is making than the guy in your example.
I understand your perspective. Better than you realize.
So, think outside the box with me for a moment...
The links say “salary”. That’s W2. It’s what you are willing to talk about when someone asks “What do you make?”
As an engineer, your world revolves around W2. There is no other form of income. You get your check, you cash it, you pay your bills... done. However, that is NOT the world of construction.
A plumber has a license which enables him to consider other work. There is a huge market of people out there who are willing to pay him the same going rate his boss charges, pay cash, and none of the overhead. It’s totally legal, and his boss encourages it.
Additionally, the job creates waste, which has value. Scrap copper pipe, etc. The boss doesn’t want it- it’s trash. But the going rate for salvage copper is nearly $4 per pound, and you generate a lot of scrap. $1000 a month in scrap value is easy.
Then there are the customers. Every day you meet people who ask you if you ever do side jobs. Your boss pays for the marketing. Then he pays you to work for them, then they ask you to come work for them at home. It’s like free money.
You are an engineer. Don’t give me links to Salary.com. Do the math. What is a construction project worth? What are the materials worth? What is the billing rate? How many hours does it take to do a job? Where did the rest of the money go?
No, this example is not anecdotal. It’s pretty normal. 40 years in construction says the facts are different than the salary info in your links. You can do the math.
No one has to believe me. Your choice.
And the piece that I am most trying to express is the piece that can’t show in any salary data. Now is the moment. The tides are changing. The old guard licensed folks are dying off, and there is a new paradigm. The prices I am sharing are the new normal. Folks can jump on the band wagon, or ignore it. It’s still true.
In reply to stuart in mn :
I have bought perhaps 20 vehicles over the years off this forum. Very few had properly transferred the title to their name.
What would you like to call that other than tax evasion?
Trades are a good way to make a steady income. Most also require just as much brainpower just as any desk job. While I often hate the hours I work, I am well compensated for them in both pay and benefits.
I have been on jobs where I was receiving W2 income, 1099 income as a subcontractor, invoiced gross revenue as the owner of a company, cash payments, and salvage revenue, all at the same time.
If anyone asked me how much I make, I would have only responded about the W2 income.
Its just the way it is.
mad_machine said:Trades are a good way to make a steady income. Most also require just as much brainpower just as any desk job. While I often hate the hours I work, I am well compensated for them in both pay and benefits.
And [assuming you aren't the owner/manager] you don't take your work home with you. As someone who has worked about 30 hours over the past 3 days while on vacation, I can't tell you how nice that would be. But my work doesn't leave me.
mtn said:mad_machine said:Trades are a good way to make a steady income. Most also require just as much brainpower just as any desk job. While I often hate the hours I work, I am well compensated for them in both pay and benefits.
And [assuming you aren't the owner/manager] you don't take your work home with you. As someone who has worked about 30 hours over the past 3 days while on vacation, I can't tell you how nice that would be. But my work doesn't leave me.
No, but I did do 62 hours last week. The OT is going to be good, but I was ready for the week to end.
SVreX is correct.
Pretty much every self-employed person on the planet knows: Cash goes in the pocket. Cheques go in the bank.
This helps make up for the "no paid vacation, no paid stat holidays, taking on all the risk yourself" part of the job.
I suspect you have all seen these videos but here is this same discussion from Mike Rowe (Dirty Jobs Guy) from
2011 or 7 years ago and again in 2017 or last year
If you have not seen them, pass them along to someone young heading into the job market (or send to their parents.)
I have a buddy who is a plumbing contractor. Charges $900 labor per fixture for labor, pipe and fittings. Fixtures and main lines are priced per the job.
Pipe is round
Poop is brown
Water flows down
Get the water (or gas) in get the E36 M3 out. There is a beautiful simplicity to the task.
Dr. Hess said:My friend was a plumber for years before he started a bike shop, later a dealership. He said there are three things you need to know to be a plumber:
- E36 M3 flows downhill.
- Payday is on Fridays.
- The boss is an shiny happy person.
I thought the third thing they learned was:
3. Don't bite your fingernails.
did I miss something .....$275 an hour to the worker and a 40 hour work week is $11,000 a week..........
$275 an hour to the shop maybe but not to the worker.......
and then there are the economy downturns where people are not fixing things just duct tape and bailing wire,
Getting in the Union is a help , but last in , first out when slow times come ,
and most workers are not in a Union ,
I agree working with your brain and hands will do you good in the long run , but you need to save $$$$$$$ for the slow times :)
SVreX said:In reply to stuart in mn :
I have bought perhaps 20 vehicles over the years off this forum. Very few had properly transferred the title to their name.
What would you like to call that other than tax evasion?
Then I guess I'm in the group that's not "most people on this forum" - I've never jumped a title in my life.
aircooled said:Basically, in many of these fields, there are SO many flakes and a-holes, if you are just a hard working person who does what you say you will do... you will get as much work as you want (once the word gets out).
YES. This is true in almost every trade. The money is there, the demand is there. If you can show up and work hard and do even passable quality work you will make bank and have a line down the street for your services. Hang out your shingle, get a reputation, and you're set.
Also, working with other people's poop isn't that bad, once you've done it a couple times. Yes the first time you think it's the worst thing in the world. But like anything you get used to it. I go to plunge a toilet, I put on gloves and carry a small bucket for the dirty plunger. But the poo doesn't bother me. Whatever. It's just poop. Don't eat it and you'll be fine.
I don't use the "charge per task" plumbers. I did once, and deeply regretted it. There are tons of them and people use them or they wouldn't be so common, but I pay time and materials, for commercial or residential work. It's still plenty of money, but the first time I paid some $15/hr lackey to spend 10 minutes putting in a $20 access panel and the bill was $200 was also the last time. "Per task" plumbers also quoted me some ridiculous price ($750!!) to do an air test on some lines and my time and materials guys cost me $80 or so.
Our painter is "retired." He works as much as he wants to, strolls in with his Tim Horton's coffee cup, does a killer job working for a few hours, gets the first coat done, and heads out for the day. Seems like a great way to make money in retirement. He said he doesn't even call it that any more - his job list is as long as he wants it to be and it's 100% word of mouth.
californiamilleghia said:did I miss something .....$275 an hour to the worker and a 40 hour work week is $11,000 a week..........
$275 an hour to the shop maybe but not to the worker.......
and then there are the economy downturns where people are not fixing things just duct tape and bailing wire,
Getting in the Union is a help , but last in , first out when slow times come ,
and most workers are not in a Union ,
I agree working with your brain and hands will do you good in the long run , but you need to save $$$$$$$ for the slow times :)
Yes, you missed things. I’m not gonna rehash again.
But I do want to note something about your “duct tape and bailing wire” comment.
That may happen in mobile homes, and residential. It doesn’t happen much in commercial and industrial plumbing. Plus, some things are regulated heavily. For example, inspections for backflow preventers. These are absolute cash cows for plumbers, and ALL businesses are required to do them on regular cycles by law. Failure to inspect them regularly will result in the close of the business operations.
So yes, economic downturns hurt everyone, but no they don’t put all the plumbers out of work.
Like any business, you can be smart and diversify your approach. Or not.
I think one of the reasons young people aren't thrilled with the trades (outside my other thoughts of male dominated industries with lots of bad attitudes and chest thumping) is that young people don't typically want to do hard/sweaty/dirty/stinky work for little money. Granted, a 19yr old working in a trade as a helper or apprentice is still making more money than his college peers, but maybe they are making $15-$20/hr, then getting a 1099, then paying a ton of taxes at the end of the year. That 19yr old kid is going to look at a $13/hr job like it's paradise, and maybe even consider an $11/hr job thats easier.
College is typically sold as "get a degree, then go get an professional job." Obviously, this anything but the truth. Many college grad spend years working up the ranks, and in some cases they are sitting in traffic commuting to and from jobs that aren't satisfying, drinking with friends on the weekends, and in general not earning much money. Not to mention tremendous amounts of debt.
There is difference though, is that for a college student, there is no "grunt work" period from a labor standpoint. College is all mental stress and deadlines, being social adept and forward thinking. Post-graduate years are all 1) job searching 2) doing menial tasks while working up the chain.
As mentioned elsewhere, I don't think I'm much of a hustler, but I'm a good critical thinker. I'm also very susceptible to heat-related headaches and migraines, so it's hard for to push-push-push in the summer heat. I don't think I was ever a good candidate for being a trade helper, because it's all about "dig holes faster, carry materials faster, climb up there and get that thing, carry that heavy stuff." It's bad enough that I get headaches doing something I love (mountain biking) but it really sucked having to eat ibuprofen all day long to keep the migraines at bay doing grunt work.
I think the thing that disappointed me about the trades was that as a helper or a "FNG", critical thinking skills, intelligence, social aptitude or the ability to communicate, none of that stuff is important. It's all about the hustle. That's a tough couple of years being viewed as meat. I wasn't cut out for it.
Meanwhile, in my current industry, while perhaps not as good paying, all of those attributes are seen as valuable, and in the case of most college-degree-requiring jobs, it's similar. Not just that, but there is often the ability to "skip over" the years of being an FNG and be seen as an equal of the tradesmen, because often times they appreciate that you do all the stuff they don't want to.
Don't get me wrong, I still would love to get into welding and fabrication, so I'm not anti-trade, and I think there is value in every kid getting a taste of trade work at summer jobs, in community college, or prior to college, but to assume that more than 1/10 of those kids would actually enjoy a trade (and being an FNG) and give up college, is a bit of stretch.
In reply to pheller :
1- I never said give up college. I have a degree.
2- I have never given up critical thinking for a single day in 40+ years in the construction industry. That’s the part I love.
I’m sorry you had a bad experience.
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