76 Trans Am Trash or Treasure?

Hi all, a neighbor of my parents has an all original 1976 Trans AM. She and her ex husband bought it new over 41 years ago, it's silver with black interior, 4 speed manual, with a 400 engine. It's been sitting in her garage for since 2005, very dusty and there was a mouse nest or two under the hood. The interior is in very nice shape and exterior is pretty good I think, it's super dirty so hard to tell. It does have some minor rust around the wheel wells and has the honeycomb looking wheels that appear in good shape. No T-tops. About 51000 miles. She's looking to sell it and I'm interested but it's pretty hard to judge what this thing is worth. I've seen some very nice ones that have sold for $12000 - $15000 but then a bunch listed for $20000 to $30000 but it doesn't look like many sell for that price.

What primarily drives the value of these cars up? I offered her $7500 as is and figure it will take at least another $3000 to get it running good and safe and looking halfway decent. I think its a fair price but I don't really know. I'm not looking to pull one over on her, quite the contrary, she is a family friend.

Your comments appreciated.

DMW

Silverfleet's spidy scenes are tingling.

In reply to datamanwesley:

Depends on how much rust there really is. Check the rear frame rails where they kick up. The trunks and floorpans too. A 400 4 speed non T-top car is very desirable. If it's not all swiss cheese underneath $7500 would be a steal.

I concur with Nick. If it really is clean underneath that's a very good price. Besides rear frame rails, check the body mounts for the front subframe.

Appleseed wrote: Silverfleet's spidy scenes are tingling.

And here I am!

Ok, so it sounds like the car is mostly original. That's good. What's not good is that it's been sitting and it's rusty. That will deter value depending on condition. Also, the mileage: remember that it's got a 5-digit odometer. My '79 stated 220,000 on the title, but I have no idea how many miles it really had. If you know the person, that's a good thing.

If you care about provenance, you can order up a Pontiac Historic Services kit which will confirm a lot of info about the car's original options and date of sale. It's around $100 these days.

When looking it over, look for the following:

-Rust in the trunk floor, tail pan, rear frame rails behind the wheel wells, floors, torque boxes in the front floors, the upper cowl, and the core support

-Look for evidence of poorly performed modifications, especially under the hood

-1976 cars have a one-year-only front fascia, so hopefully that's in good shape. The hood and shaker should interchange with some earlier cars, and the tail pan/tail lights are the same from 1974-78. Rear bumpers differ by year.

-They make reproductions of a lot of the interior parts, as well as sheet metal now. They didn't 5-10 years ago.

If you can get some pictures of the car in it's current state, that would help us determine a good value for it.

If is it as stated and rot free (surface rust is ok) $7500 is a steel. I would pounce on that if you pass. 13-15K is where I think a good starting point on the open market would be and expect to get talked down a little. That is all the $$$$ as it sits. These cars "freshened" are in the very high teens and restorations (of varrying degrees) are in the 20's and up. These are getting more popular. I have had my radar out searching for a 1975 Formula 400 4 speed slick top for a while. I had one back in the 80's. Loved that car. They are really thin on the ground and are commanding some serious $$$$ now. Basket cases that I have been tempted by are in the 5K range. These are almost getting to the point of being VIN plate sales.

In reply to dean1484:

I'm hoping that "basket case" examples keep rising in case I decide to sell mine.

The market has definitely changed. I had a documented 79k mile 1979 Trans Am 10th Anniversary car, and it was mostly original and had the desirable W72 package (Pontiac 400/4-speed manual for those who don't speak Poncho). I paid $500 for it in 2004 with another half-a-car's worth of parts. It was a real basket case that needed everything. I sold it for $2k and some parts in 2011. I could have sold it for $5-6k today.

These cars got crushed by the thousands 10 or so years ago so they are definitely rare now.

Back in the late-90's I turned down a rust free, running-driving 78 T/A for only $1,500.

I knew it was a good deal then, but didn't realize how much of a good deal until now. They are actually pretty good cars--- great highway mile eaters that can be made to handle well.

I recently bought a somewhat comparable car except I don't have any ownership history, which is a big deal to me. Mine is a 79 Formula, black on black, 400/4 speed, ws6, w72, t-tops, very original, paint fair (survivor quality), and one fender bottom rusted out but the rest solid. I gave in the neighborhood of your offer and feel like I stole it. Now your car is a one owner and if they have the original docs I wouldn't hesitate to give 12k ...potentially more as is, but then again I'm a sucker for 1 owner cars. If you get it for somewhere around your offer and want to make some quick cash email me....I love me a 2nd gen f-body.

Wow, thanks for all the responses! I would not be surprised if she has all the original docs. It's definitely legit on the mileage and has had no modifications whatsoever, like I said she's a neighbor of my parents who kept the car after a divorce like 25 years ago. Her and my mom have been good friends for over 40 years. Sounds like the biggest issue is the potential for rot, I'll have to check it out further. I'm guessing its just surface rot, its been in the garage but it is in Wisconsin. I also worry about mice eating the wiring. Worst case, how much am I looking at to make it run if the mice have chewed it up?

I owned a '77, '79 and an '80 T/A. They were all under challenge money and were all solid mostly rust free cars. That was nearly twenty years ago and I don't think you could touch any of them, in the condition they were in at the time, for under $10K now.

I absolutely love the second gen T/As. I just can't afford to play with them anymore.

Unless it's severely rusted you can't go wrong. 4 speed cars are very rare and worth a lot more than autos. Don't sweat the wiring, it is not a show stopper by any means.

In reply to datamanwesley:

You can get a factory style harness for a grand or so....generics are less, but I prefer the factory style with all the correct connectors, wire colors, etc.

Also if you do decide to broker the sale for them or turn it over yourself please let me know. I'd love to add a low mileage original T/A to the fleet.

Jeff,

Take me under your wing sir.

In reply to yupididit:

lol I've got to build a bigger garage.

Yeah, right? Are you in the mood for adult man-child adoption?

So I bought this car from her last spring.  Cleaned her up, replaced hoses, radiator, all fluids, etc. and she runs decent.  Overall, she's in excellent shape, especially the interior.  There is some rust on the rocker panels, door corners, and other blemishes, but not too bad.  A few photos are here:

I took her to a "cars curing kids" cruise last fall and at the local childrens hospital and out of about 70 cars, the kids voted her the best "superman" car.  I think they liked the huge bird on the hood.  

A few questions, any replies appreciated:

1) Someone at the show last fall said these are becoming less and less common and that I should make sure she's properly insured which she is not right now.  The insurance company basically said I need to choose a value.  Any suggetsions?  She is all original, I am the second owner, 400, 4sp, hard top.  Bunch of minor cosmetic things but overall very solid.  55000 miles.  

2) She runs OK but I feel like its too hard to get her off the line, feel like I have to ride the clutch way too much.  I know she only makes like 185hp but think with the torque output, I should be able to easily get off the line and burn the tires which I cannot.  Should I be able to break loose easy if I stand on it in first or were these years 400 TAs just super weak?  I dont think she's missing, but maybe needs a significant tune up.  

3) What mods would you recommend to increase power but preserve most of her originality.  I hesitate to do any crazy mods as she is completely untouched and bone stock.  Maybe tubular exhaust and true dual exhaust?  Rear end?  

4) The stereo.... it has radio and 8 track which is cool but at the moment just the front speaker works.  Anyway...not good enough dudes.  Anyone have recommendations for additonal speaker locations or anything to crank it up but not ruin the look of the inside?

I live in Madison, WI so not exactly classic car county like my ext family who lives around detroit metro.  Over there, it's easy to find experts and places that can do quality builds and people who really know what they're doing.  If anyone has any recommendations for ponitac people near me, that'd be great also.

Thanks all,

Wes Gill

As a Mod, I fixed your pictures.

She looks great!  

I would insure it at 20k. 

Chances are the carb is crapped up inside from sitting.  You absolutely must find a q-jet expert to do it or it will be turned into a doorstop.  Have the carb gone through, set the timing, do not modify anything and enjoy your torque.  

Smog era cars were weak.  There's a reason why there is a stigma to this day against emissions control devices, and the "make less power and cross fingers" method the big 3 used in the 1970s is it.

It probably also has some massively tall gearing in the rearend, and the 4 speeds generally had 1st gears that were tall as well, even the "wide ratio" sets.  So say it had a 3.23 final drive (might be in the 2s) and a 2.56 1st gear... that is a recipe for needing some clutch slip to get moving.  400ci doesn't matter when the engine has very low compression and a camshaft that barely moves the valves.

That is a great starting point for whatever you want to do with it.  Not so perfect that you feel guilty for some mods, not so beat you'd be embarrassed to show your face.

You have no torque because close ratio trans and high rear gear.  All the motor in the world won't replace 3.73s and another gear in the trans if you want to launch.

Here is what I would do, and this is my opinion only. I accept no responsibility for bad advice:

Find an old guy and get the carb cleaned up and rebuilt. Don't buy a rebuilt.  Find a cranky old GM tech who will then bitch about the gaskets in the modern carb kit.   If the filter is jammed full of rust, order a new fuel tank and crush the old one. Pull the distributor shaft apart, clean and lube the trigger wheel/ advance weight internal bushing.

Poke around under the car.  Pull the most likely damp fur out from under the carpet and, unless it's tragic, por15 it and drive.

Start shopping for a 5 speed and 3.73s.

When somebody points out a rust patch or blemish, smile and say, "Yep, it's gonna get some lovin some day "

Don't replace functioning components with new, reproduction, or "race" parts. None of them are half the quality of the original GM parts already screwed to the car. 

DO NOT TAKE THE CAR APART.  DO NOT TAKE THE CAR APART. DO NOT TAKE THE CAR APART. DO NOT TAKE THE CAR APART.

Drive, enjoy, repair as required.

Oh yeah, one last thing- Do not, under any circumstances, think you can turn a Pontiac V8 into anything other than a 5500 rpm engine.  The main bearings are just too damn big around.  You can make it damn fast (well, fun at least) without stretching the rpm range. Want fast?  Piss of the purists and go Chevrolet.

Such a cool car,  if you ever decide to let it go let me know.  I have a gold 78 T/A and it’s blast,  but I’d like to have a 4 speed car too.

Do yourself a favor and replace the fiber cam sprocket for a steel one before the fiber one lets go on a down shift.

Streetwiseguy said:

Oh yeah, one last thing- Do not, under any circumstances, think you can turn a Pontiac V8 into anything other than a 5500 rpm engine.  The main bearings are just too damn big around.  You can make it damn fast (well, fun at least) without stretching the rpm range. Want fast?  Piss of the purists and go Chevrolet.

It can be done, just not inexpensively.  For a 400 ci engine the main bearings aren't overly large (that was the 455 that had big crank journals) but the head design and cam didn't lend themselves well to high RPM operation.  In any case, for street use there wouldn't be any point.

Here are the codes for Firebird differential ratios for 1976.  There should be a little tag with your code on one of the bolts on the rear end, crawl underneath and take a look:

PS - 2.41 Rear Gear (Posi)
PU - 2.73 Rear Gear (Posi)
PW - 3.08 Rear Gear (Posi)
PX - 3.23 Rear Gear (Posi)
LD - 3.23 Rear Gear (Posi)
PA - 2.73 Rear Gear (Open)
PC - 3.08 Rear Gear (Open)
PJ - 2.41 Rear Gear (Open)
PD - 3.23 Rear Gear (Open)

If you haven't already found it, the MaxPerformance web board (sponsored by Ames Performance Engineering, a Pontiac reproduction parts house) is the main online tech site for Pontiac cars of all types.  http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/  There is a tech sub-forum specifically for 1974 - 1976 Trans Ams.