99% of poor people have refridgerators!

JThw8 wrote: Amen! Anyone who has been a victim, um I mean recipient, of any government healthcare in this country (ie. veterans) will tell you the government doesn't do a good job with healthcare.

One of the aircraft mechanics where my dad has taken his airplanes raves about how happy he is with he VA coverage. I don't know if he goes into VA hospitals or not, but he says he doesn't know how he'd be able to afford the medication or a couple of procedures he's had without it. He really likes how the costs are on a sliding scale based on ability to pay.

Could be he hasn't had to go in for anything really major or that he's just lucky enough to be in an area where they do an anomalously good job.

My grandfather has gotten better medical care at Bethesda Navel Hospital than any other facility in his entire life. But I know that is not indicative of average VA care, since they tend to cater to Brass and Congress.

Totally anecdotal. I'm mostly being pedantic in arguing against your absolute statement.

In reply to Salanis:

my guess would be the interest deduction, as the first time homebuyer credit was supposed to expire at some point.

you can also deduct student loan interest, doesn't anyone care about the poor students trying to pay off their education?

Salanis wrote:

JThw8 wrote: Amen! Anyone who has been a victim, um I mean recipient, of any government healthcare in this country (ie. veterans) will tell you the government doesn't do a good job with healthcare.

One of the aircraft mechanics where my dad has taken his airplanes raves about how happy he is with he VA coverage. I don't know if he goes into VA hospitals or not, but he says he doesn't know how he'd be able to afford the medication or a couple of procedures he's had without it. He really likes how the costs are on a sliding scale based on ability to pay. Could be he hasn't had to go in for anything really major or that he's just lucky enough to be in an area where they do an anomalously good job. My grandfather has gotten better medical care at Bethesda Navel Hospital than any other facility in his entire life. But I know that is *not* indicative of average VA care, since they tend to cater to Brass and Congress. Totally anecdotal. I'm mostly being pedantic in arguing against your absolute statement.

Yes, Bethesda is a huge anomaly in the system, I've been there, if all govt healthcare was like that I would be fine.

What I hear with your father's experience is that he is happy with the cost, not the level of care. I will agree that the medical care I received from the military was worth every cent I paid for it, but not much more.

I'd like to know what percentage of "poor" people have more than one TV.

Strizzo wrote: my guess would be the interest deduction, as the first time homebuyer credit was supposed to expire at some point. you can also deduct student loan interest, doesn't anyone care about the poor students trying to pay off their education?

Exactly. You keep playing the "Doesn't anyone care about the..." game, nothing gets taken off the table.

People get a lot angrier about something their used to getting taken away, than people are for something new that benefits them. Even if the people with their interest deduction would end up paying less, they're not going to know that ahead of time, and will just react to the thing that helps them right now getting taken away.

JThw8 wrote: What I hear with your father's experience is that he is happy with the cost, not the level of care. I will agree that the medical care I received from the military was worth every cent I paid for it, but not much more.

Not my father. A friend of his.

He had nothing but good things to say about his coverage. He was just most happy about the price. But it is circumstantial and most likely just represents the level of care in this region.

You are idealized because you are young and ignorant (no offense) of how the real world works. Why don't you offer up floor space in your apartment for the homeless? Do you have a part time job, a car? Why don't you donate that to the shelter, why don't you spend every waking minute of your life to tote the less fortunate around town? Better yet, why don't we make you? Why is it that the most vocal people (mainly Democrats) that want to save the world want to do it with other people's money? How much 'extra' did you donate on your federal taxes last year????? Just curious, what's stopping your from living your word? Isn't that the America you want to live in? Why is it the higher the education level, and the older a person becomes, the more likely they are to be Republican? Maybe, just maybe, because they have worked hard enough that they have created a life for themselves and want to actually keep some of it, and have seen enough BS in their lives to recognize when someone is blowing smoke up their a$$ and just plain LAZY. Isn't that the "American Dream?"That you work hard for yourself, you can work yourself up and have a better life for yourself and your family? You are simply not old enough to have seen people game the system and simply providing handouts does not provide any real solution, all it does is create a portion of society that is dependent on them and come to expect them. My income puts me in the top 3% in this country. I am 35, and I have done it entirely on my own. No handouts, no freebies, nothing. I worked construction 7 days a week for weeks at a time during summers to pay for my community college, sold my car once to pay for one more semester, what ever it took to keep moving forward. For some people less fortunate that seems like an utter impossibility just because they have not had the same success. Guess what? We are not all the same, but I guarantee, unless you are mentally or physically challenged, the opportunities presented to me are available for anyone out there! But you have to work, and keep searching, and work some more, I've worked up to 20 hours straight for days at a time and fallen asleep into my dinner before, because I had a very strong desire to succeed, I had to make enough money to pay the school bill when it comes due. My parents were very much middle of the middle class and I was on my own. I am not special, anyone can do what I've done, I think I have been graced with incredible good fortune and health, and am forever grateful. But to think that I am not paying my 'fair share' just because of my income is complete BS. Last year I paid well over $50k in federal taxes. I donate to charity regularly, by choice, and I am quite certain that I give way more than most bleeding heart liberals would ever consider. I give to those causes that I choose to and have a personal connection. We provide clothes and coats to "Shoes That Fit" every year and provide scholarships to a private preschool so that kids we can help get a good start in education. I don't need anyone telling me that I do not pay my "fair share" right now and need to provide more support to the federal government so that it can be squandered away to the generation of "DO NOTHINGS" that are taking over this place. You are young, and I take your comments with a grain of salt because I was that same person at one time. Then I grew up, and opened my eyes and realized this idea of redistributing wealth, and social justice is complete BS and has, and will continue to, lead to the downfall of this country until something changes. 'END RANT'

fritzsch wrote:

ThePhranc wrote: The American "poor" are hardly poor. They live in larger homes than the average European. They have cell phones and cable TV and cars. None of them have ever really been poor. I just can't feel bad for people who have so much. I know poverty. I know what its like to live on streets with everything you own crammed into a duffel and a small toll box. I know what its like to go to the temp labour office 7 days a week to work for min wage so you can afford to eat something and rent a slummy motel room once a week to take a real shower and not just a whores bath. When the American "poor" have lived like that then I'll start to give a crap.

Ive lived in germany, and I dont think its entirely fair to compare home size. Granted my experience is limited to Berlin, but when I lived there we lived in a small apartment and its no bigger than the apartment Im renting for college. Its just more of the norm to live in smaller spaces, which I think goes back to smaller centralized densely packed cities pre industrial revolution. America has had the luxury of never being crammed for space, and I think that is a contributer to house size. But we would have a serious serious problem if a substantial amount of lived in the conditions you described before we started to help them. I think the aid given helps to prevent such absolute poverty. But I do agree to a point, there are things I would not have, like the ones you listed, if I was struggling to eat everyday.

In reply to fritzsch:

When you make it easy to be poor the poor will remain poor. This is an age old truth. Trust me when you take away all the "aid" they get they will start to hustle and do for them self. If they don't then they deserve to starve. Harsh? Yes but the world isn't all fluffy bunnies and free meals.

To get back on the original topic. I'm glad that what this country considers poor is a lot nicer than what the average in most countries is. I'm not going to get angry at them because their life doesn't suck. I'm also not going to feel too bad for them either.

There are people taking advantage of the social systems in this country. There are probably more people who make good, legitimate use out of them.

I also don't think that keeping these people living in decent conditions really hurts me or my quality of life. I don't think taking care of the lowest in society truly limits the ability of the innovators and entrepeneurs to create new things. Yes, they have to pay higher taxes, but you don't have to worry as much about desperate crime, disease, or disaster.

I think there's a reason you see more innovation and new technology coming out of well developed countries where most of the population is taken care of, not destitute ones without as many taxes. I don't know, but I'd be willing to bet that Germany and Japan aren't doing as well as they are because their tax rates are a bunch lower than our's.

Yeah, when you make sure the population is taken care of, you get free riders. But you also have a better labor pool to pick the most skilled and capable workers from.

I've been homeless and squatting in a condemned building. Most people who call themselves poor need to shut the berkeley up.

In reply to AugustusGloop:

Not sure if that is supposed to be directed at me, but I suspect I'm one of the people it is directed at. First off, I'm not Democrat or Republican, or any political party. I don't consider myself too idealistic. I consider myself more pragmatic.

Like most people, I want what I think is best for me. I think I am benefited more by having the majority of people in this country living pretty decently than I would be by having lower taxes. I see that as meaning less crime, less violence, less disease, etc.

I don't think our system is perfect, but it functions well enough that I am able to live a pretty darn good lifestyle compared to the rest of the world.

I think these safety nets help improve innovation in this country. People are able to take a chance in starting a new business or developing a new product, because they will still have a decent quality of life if they fail.

You probably don't believe what I do. Heck, I bet everyone on this board believes something else slightly different from each other. I bet we all believe we know better than the guy next to us. I think it is impossible to say who actually knows what is best because no one actually does. I think we live in a society that does a pretty damned decent job of compromising on what everyone thinks is best.

Yeah. Our society can be wasteful. That's because our society produces enough that there is excess for us to waste. I bet the truly destitute living in small South American villages handle their societies a lot less wastefully than we do. I also know which one I'd rather live in.

I like some of the social services this country/state provides, like cheap university education and unemployment insurance. I probably have gotten more out of the system than I have put in. Before I die, I will probably have put in more than I have gotten out.

But because the system is making my life pretty easy, I have to opportunity to study with the goal of starting a business or helping someone grow an established business. When that happens, I will almost certainly be putting in more than I get out. Result is: society benefits from investing in me now. Even though I'll probably pay in more than I get out, I'll still benefit from these systems.

Heck, my dad is unemployed now. He's paid millions of dollars in taxes in the past. If it weren't for unemployment insurance, he would probably not have the ability to not make an income while he is busily doing the work of starting a business that doesn't make any money... yet.

He likes to complain about how much taxes he's spent, and hasn't gotten back nearly what he's put in. But if things like unemployment weren't in place, he still wouldn't have the money he'd made and would not now have a way of supporting himself.

Salanis wrote:

JThw8 wrote: Amen! Anyone who has been a victim, um I mean recipient, of any government healthcare in this country (ie. veterans) will tell you the government doesn't do a good job with healthcare.

One of the aircraft mechanics where my dad has taken his airplanes raves about how happy he is with he VA coverage. I don't know if he goes into VA hospitals or not, but he says he doesn't know how he'd be able to afford the medication or a couple of procedures he's had without it. He really likes how the costs are on a sliding scale based on ability to pay. Could be he hasn't had to go in for anything really major or that he's just lucky enough to be in an area where they do an anomalously good job. My grandfather has gotten better medical care at Bethesda Navel Hospital than any other facility in his entire life. But I know that is *not* indicative of average VA care, since they tend to cater to Brass and Congress. Totally anecdotal. I'm mostly being pedantic in arguing against your absolute statement.

Real VA care isn't charged, so if your anecdotal person is paying money, he likely has TriCare, which is a normal health plan but slightly administered by the VA for retiree's. Not even remotely close to the same thing as VA care.

I really need to stop reading "off topic".

Just keep in mind folks. You are not as diametrically opposed as the internet would have you believe.

Anyone who likes the EPA has never had to work with them..

I just can't put my head around the fact that Conservatives call this a "Christian Nation" but their actions are anything but. So we prop up Jesus to be a model of what everyone should be, yet they completely ignore anything he as ever taught. Get "God" off my money, out of our pledge, and take every cross off gov't land OR start practicing what you preach.

Help out a fellow countryman? What do I get out of it? Screw the poor and sick, it's obviously their fault and their choice to be that way

And how come taxes are the lowest they have ever been in modern history but there are no jobs and the anti-tax crowds are screaming louder than ever? Come on "job creators", create some berkeleying jobs!

Not directed specifically toward you Salanis. I respect that we all may have differing opinions, at the same time I think our opinions are based on our experiences, or lack thereof, and as such can skew how we view the bigger picture. I agree we have it better in this country than most other places in this world. The so called 'poor' here in the U.S. also have it much better than many of those at even a middle income level in other countries. Part of the debate, as I see it, is where do you draw the line? At what income level, should someone qualify for assistance? $20k a year, $30k? Cell phones, televisions, cable tv, video game systems, eating out, vacations, car ownership, home ownership, etc are luxuries, pure and simple, and not a necessity in life, nor is anyone entitled to them. If you earned it, you deserve it, if not, you don't. A person can live a without any of the above mentioned luxuries. The problem becomes if people receiving assistance actually have these things, and still taking handouts, there is probably something wrong. Public aid, social security is supposed to be there to keep a roof ( a very basic roof) over your head, and keep you from starving to death, not supplement your income so you can have a cell phone for you and all your kids, and two cars in the driveway, and take a trip to see Maury Povich. The problem is we have become a society that can't say no, and everyone thinks they are entitled to everything that anyone else has because this is America and somehow people got it in their head that we are all equal and it is 'unfair' and 'discriminatory' if you don't give it to me. It's about personal choice, and responsibility. If you choose to spend your money on a cell phone, cigarettes, cable tv, a car payment, getting your nails done, and now you can't pay rent? Sorry, we as a society should have some gonads and say we can't, I mean won't help you. Just because we could, doesn't mean we should. We are not all equal, this is supposed to be a place of equal OPPORTUNITY, not equal 'stuff' for all.

Our country does way too much to let the "poor" continue being lazy. why can they use their food stamps, oh sorrrry that makes them feel bad lets give 'em charge cards. why can they spend money that is supposed to pay for food on anything? i say make 'em go to a soup kitchen if they want food. need a place to stay, go to a shelter. getting public assistance should be discouraged unless your in real need. And make then take drug tests!

I think the government should never give out cash (like they do now) but provide services.

if we made services to help the poor that did only that and gave some incentive to earn on your own, there would be a lot less people sucking off the system.

aggravator wrote: Our country does way too much to let the "poor" continue being lazy. why can they use their food stamps, oh sorrrry that makes them feel bad lets give 'em charge cards. why can they spend money that is supposed to pay for food on anything? i say make 'em go to a soup kitchen if they want food. need a place to stay, go to a shelter. getting public assistance should be discouraged unless your in real need. And make then take drug tests! I think the government should never give out cash (like they do now) but provide services. if we made services to help the poor that did only that and gave some incentive to earn on your own, there would be a lot less people sucking off the system.

This!

Cone_Junky wrote: I just can't put my head around the fact that Conservatives call this a "Christian Nation" but their actions are anything but. So we prop up Jesus to be a model of what everyone should be, yet they completely ignore anything he as ever taught. Get "God" off my money, out of our pledge, and take every cross off gov't land OR start practicing what you preach. Help out a fellow countryman? What do I get out of it? Screw the poor and sick, it's obviously their fault and their choice to be that way And how come taxes are the lowest they have ever been in modern history but there are no jobs and the anti-tax crowds are screaming louder than ever? Come on "job creators", create some berkeleying jobs!

<--Conservative. Does not "prop up Jesus" and does not call this a "christian nation." I also love how the "lowest taxes in modern history" crowd likes to ignore the dozens of smaller taxes that have been added over the last 10 years that push up the ACTUAL tax rate.

Well, I wouldn't have to worry about a second kid if we tried that with the first one, I'd have a dead wife and baby. 72 hours of labor before they performed the c-section.

Mezzanine wrote:

Per, have your kid at home- way cheaper. We just had our first at home, and our total bill (from the midwife) was about 5% of what our friends paid for a normal hospital delivery.

It's what the rich AND poor used to do, before we all started to think we need a surgeon deliver a baby.

One thing I've noticed about political rant threads is as they get longer, the number of carriage returns in an average post approaches zero.

A lot more spittle on the monitor, too.

Javelin wrote: For those of you who support Government healthcare, please drive to your nearest VA hospital and sit in the lobby for 15 minutes. I guarantee you will no longer support Government healthcare in any way, shape, or form. Sincerely, Veteran.

It sure beats no health care. I make too much for poor people insurance, and not enough to afford my own. I'm still taking meds and having lab work done form when I had pulmonary embolisms earlier this year. You want a real not fun decision? Debating stopping your medication so you can keep paying your bills. Luckily the company that does my bi-weekly lab work was willing to give me a discount so I can keep going because I couldn't have afforded the full price $150 a month.

My take home is about $17,000 a year. With this I have to feed and house a four person family. We make it work but I have a hard time not rolling my eyes at the people who claim we need to get rid of things like the child tax credit and raise my taxes. I'm not saying there aren't people who abuse the system (I know a few myself), I'm just saying there are also plenty of other hard working families who use it as intended. Don't forget about them just because you've seen a few slackers.

Reading the posts in this thread scares me. There are a lot of very very cold and uncaring people out there...

My grandpa is a WWII vet and a Republican. But no matter who was in the White House, whether he agreed with them or not, he was proud to pay his taxes. My dad learned this from my grandpa and I learned this from my dad. It's part of being an American, and I am proud to be an American.