jstein77 said:dropstep said:I actually enjoy drifting but you pretty much have to be willing to crash the car. The power levels and speeds in pro drifting are getting higher every year.
So it's getting even sillier than it started, then.
Well, to be fair it's no less "silly" than autocross......it's not my thing, but different strokes and all that.
Joe Gearin said:jstein77 said:dropstep said:I actually enjoy drifting but you pretty much have to be willing to crash the car. The power levels and speeds in pro drifting are getting higher every year.
So it's getting even sillier than it started, then.
Well, to be fair it's no less "silly" than autocross......it's not my thing, but different strokes and all that.
Not exactly... Autocross is a timed competitive event where winner and losers are clearly identified based on how quickly they can get through a chosen course.
Drifting is sliding sideways at speed for no reason other than to look "good" and the winner is judged by how "good" they look.
Both are fun and people enjoy them and that's great, but one is a popularity contest and the other is an actual competition.
And both look stupid and a waist of time to the uninitiated.
Stefan said:Joe Gearin said:jstein77 said:dropstep said:I actually enjoy drifting but you pretty much have to be willing to crash the car. The power levels and speeds in pro drifting are getting higher every year.
So it's getting even sillier than it started, then.
Well, to be fair it's no less "silly" than autocross......it's not my thing, but different strokes and all that.
Not exactly... Autocross is a timed competitive event where winner and losers are clearly identified based on how quickly they can get through a chosen course.
Drifting is sliding sideways at speed for no reason other than to look "good" and the winner is judged by how "good" they look.
Both are fun and people enjoy them and that's great, but one is a popularity contest and the other is an actual competition.
Drifting has a defined set of parameters they shoot for (slip angle, wheel angle, speed, etc). It is not just a popularity contest, and genuine skill is involved. Both are silly.........both are fun. In one you are running around a parking lot running an imaginary "race course". In the other you are sliding around a similar course. Let's not disparage either.....both are a way of having a good time behind the wheel, while running in a controlled environment.
In reply to Joe Gearin :
Is there a measurable outcome that is not based on human observation?
In reply to Stefan :
My understanding is the lead car tries to gain a gap over the chase car and then they switch and do it again. Biggest gap wins.
Stefan said:In reply to Joe Gearin :
Is there a measurable outcome that is not based on human observation?
Sooooo, diving, figure skating, gymnastics, dance, snowboarding, skiing, skateboarding, surfing, cooking/baking competitions, and many many many more are just popularity contests?
My guess is that experienced autocrossers could ride with each competitor and mostly pick the fastest without a clock.
I've got nothing against drifting even though i know almost nothing about it. I agree with the sentiment that too the uninitiated it makes every bit as much sense as autocross. Actually forget that, autocross is boring to watch even for the initiated most of the time and doesn't seem to attract scantily clad young women or TV cameras, so I'll say drifting apparently makes more sense to many.
Anyway, the fact that pro drift cars apparently have working aero rather than just for show wings suggests to me (again, I claim no knowledge here) that they must have need for it amd that there is a great deal of skill needed to predictably, repeatably drift a mega horsepower car while overcoming what I assume must be huge grip. These aren't just Mustangs and Camaro's with too much power on bald all season tires. These must be some pretty rad well developed cars. Maybe it's time for the magazine to do a profile of a top flight car talking to the builder and Engineer not just the driver.
Stampie said:In reply to Stefan :
My understanding is the lead car tries to gain a gap over the chase car and then they switch and do it again. Biggest gap wins.
Uh-huh. A great amount of skill involved, certainly. A lot of fun to do, also very much certainly. A quantifiable result? Not really.
Robbie said:Stefan said:In reply to Joe Gearin :
Is there a measurable outcome that is not based on human observation?
Sooooo, diving, figure skating, gymnastics, dance, snowboarding, skiing, skateboarding, surfing, cooking/baking competitions, and many many many more are just popularity contests?
My guess is that experienced autocrossers could ride with each competitor and mostly pick the fastest without a clock.
Yes. Anyone remember certain Russian judges at a certain figure skating competition?
Whenever you've got humans judging solely based on observation, you introduce a huge amount of variability, you can expand the panel of those judging, but ultimately it comes down to what gets the attention of the judges based around their preconceived notions. Its just a fact of life.
Stop insinuating that I'm saying that Drifting or those other sports mentioned don't require a certain amount of skill and dedication, they certainly do. I'm not saying that many people find them entertaining, they certainly do.
What I'm saying is that figure skating and speed skating both share a lot of similarities in skill development and equipment, but they are not the same sport. This could be said for Autocross and Drifting.
What I see a lot of from the Drifting crowd is a lot of skill at the top, a lot of effort marketing themselves as not professional and very much rebellious in nature. When pressed about this, many fans get really defensive that it truly isn't that way, never mind what the marketing says and the perception of the average person on the street.
My issue? Its the fact that the bad apples of the Drifting culture, the idiots that do it on the street, drive like complete arseholes, etc. get somehow lumped in with the rest of us who are into "racing" and "cars" it really irritates me and makes me want nothing to do with Drifting in general. Due to the nature of it, this will never, ever get better as they are all about showing off and creating a spectacle. So until the culture actually shows signs of cleaning things up they will always be viewed with suspicion by much of the rest of auto culture.
If you enjoy it, great. I'm happy for you and I hope you do so in a safe manner. For me, its not entertaining and I'll skip it thanks.
Stampie said:In reply to Stefan :
My understanding is the lead car tries to gain a gap over the chase car and then they switch and do it again. Biggest gap wins.
That can't be all of it or they wouldn't be driving sideways.
Stefan said:Stampie said:In reply to Stefan :
My understanding is the lead car tries to gain a gap over the chase car and then they switch and do it again. Biggest gap wins.
Uh-huh. A great amount of skill involved, certainly. A lot of fun to do, also very much certainly. A quantifiable result? Not really.
Was Shawn White's snowboarding routine in the X-Games a "quanifiable result?" Was the gold medal for figure skating handed out for "popularity?" How about gymnastic gold---- just given out because their routine "looked cool?" Drifting follows this same formula. Like it or not, it's legitimate. There are bad apples in every crowd--- as we saw when the Fast and Furious kids were grouped in as "racers".
Joe Gearin said:Stefan said:Stampie said:In reply to Stefan :
My understanding is the lead car tries to gain a gap over the chase car and then they switch and do it again. Biggest gap wins.
Uh-huh. A great amount of skill involved, certainly. A lot of fun to do, also very much certainly. A quantifiable result? Not really.
Was Shawn White's snowboarding routine in the X-Games a "quanifiable result?" Was the gold medal for figure skating handed out for "popularity?" How about gymnastic gold---- just given out because their routine "looked cool?" Drifting follows this same formula. Like it or not, it's legitimate. There are bad apples in every crowd--- as we saw when the Fast and Furious kids were grouped in as "racers".
Eh, I get Stefan's point. As much as you can try to quantify elements of the competition - entry speed, slip angle, gap, whatever - there is still a large element of subjectivity, it would seem. I like racing because it is, in theory at least, about as simple and objective a competition as there is, "I'd going to go from here to there and I'm going to do it faster than you."
While drifting probably isn't something I would have an interest in seriously competing in, and I find it kind of boring to watch on TV, I still get the appeal. Who doesn't enjoy sliding around a snowy parking lot? Same thing, just on dry pavement and going a lot faster. The cars are neat, and it's cool how quickly they have evolved into the highly specialized machinery they have become. I've never heard of street drifters being a major issue, at least in my area, so I highly doubt the busybody soccer mom types have either. Really my biggest knock is that the popularity has driven up the price of cheap RWD platforms and a lot of the cars end up pretty well trashed in the process.
Keith Tanner said:Stampie said:In reply to Stefan :
My understanding is the lead car tries to gain a gap over the chase car and then they switch and do it again. Biggest gap wins.
That can't be all of it or they wouldn't be driving sideways.
The lead driver tries to have as much angle as possible, while getting the front or rear of the car as close to inside or outside clipping points, respectively. They are also judged on how committed they are (no wavering on throttle or major steering corrections) and how aggressive an entry they make. The chase driver tries to stay as close in proximity to the lead driver, while mirroring his angle and line. A lead driver who runs shallow line or little angle to try and open up a gap over a chase driver will get penalized, while a chase driver who is falling behind can shallow up his line or angle to try and regain ground on the lead driver. Straightening, spinning out, opposite drift, hanging more than 2 wheels off course or inactive chase (which is when a chase driver sandbags and makes a safe run after the now-lead driver screwed up on his chase run) are all grounds for a zeroed-out run.
There's actually a lot of rules and behind the scenes action.
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