In reply to Flynlow (FS) :
All good!
(even if you are the Big Bad Wolf!) 
...or maybe it's me! 
In reply to Flynlow (FS) :
All good!
(even if you are the Big Bad Wolf!)
...or maybe it's me!
In reply to Apexcarver :
yes i am. i will PM you sometime today. thank you!
kinda OT: when i started in 1991, iirc the program was called "intern leadership development" or something like that, maybe didn't have the word "intern" in it. anyway, it was GS-5 Engineer in the DC area. If i had a 3.0 it would have been GS-7. No matter, as the plan had auto-bump to GS-7 after 6 months, then GS-9 after an additional 12 (18 total), then GS-11 after another 12 (30 total). so i was a GS-9 Step 1 when i left in the fall of 1993, moved to Detroit to begin my career in automotive. if i had that magical 3.0, the bump from 7 to 9 would have been at 12 months, then from 9 to 11 at 24 months. and with the Base Realignment And Closure plan, 1/3 of the R&D center got moved to Detroit about 18 months later, including the team I was on!
Flynlow (FS) said:In reply to bobzilla :
It bothers me that you snipped the quote and left my name attached to it, because it changes the context of that comment considerably...IE SV reX's first line was "I agree completely". May not have been deliberate on your part, but just as an FYI.
I am in no way a "Companies are all bad, Rich people are all bad, Capitalism is the root of all evil" person, and I avoided the real estate thread. I said, "Most full time jobs should pay a living wage", and I stand by that. I imagine over a beer SV reX and I (and most in this thread) would align on 95% of our views.
No reference to you. Trying to snip down to the relevant part on the phone is not the easiest to do.
ProDarwin said:...at some point the cost of experience staff is too high to justify retaining them. ...
I am not arguing that a worker should be payed more than the value they bring to the company. I'm arguing that a more valuable worker should be compensated better as their value increases. Presumably, time will typically bring more experience that brings more value.
Rewards and compensation do not have to be pay increases.
For example - the brewery where I did my internship after school. All of the production/packaging workers were union and made the same flat $19/hour (in 2012 = ~$26/hr today) regardless of time spent on the job (very nice for a small town in Minnesota for a job that didn't require a degree or certification).
Employees who had been there longer got more PTO. More importantly, people who'd worked longer and demonstrated greater value got assigned better tasks.
A new hire would get the most menial, tedious, repetitive, schlep job on the bottling/canning line.
Workers who'd been there a while and demonstrated more aptitude got to be brewers or cellarmen which was a lot more fun. You got to walk around instead of being stuck at one station. You got to do more, varied tasks. Your workload had downtime watching processes run where you could put your feet up and poke around on your phone for a few minutes. You had a bit of flexibility to roll in a few minutes early/late and not have to start up at the exact same time as everyone else on a line.
Workers who'd been there a while but weren't as quick and clever got cushier stations on the packaging line like working the labeler. You got to sit on a stool and monitor things that mostly ran themselves, with occasional hiccups. You'd do more setting up the line and clearing problems quickly - which you'd learned to do with time and experience - but most of the run was chill and easy.
There are lots of ways to reward loyalty and experience - usually better than a miniscule pay increase. A good employer will figure that out if they want to retain valuable employees.
In reply to bobzilla :
Ah, apologies then. I usually post from my laptop, I do remember how tough it is to get the formatting and quotes to line up on mobile. Carry on! :)
And in the interest of full disclosure, I went back and searched the real estate thread, and I did post a couple times in the beginning and forgot about it...it was 3+ years ago, I think I've stayed out of it since. I stand by what I said there too, ha. It was a more interesting topic when it was covering financing and some of the intricacies of the market and tax code.
Mine.
Started for a non-profit arts organization in 2015 for [insert comically low number here]
- 2016-2021, no raise
- 2021, promised a 20% raise to make up for the years of neglect, actually got 7%
-2023, asked for a raise in May, it's now half way through September and they keep pushing it off.
Safe to say, I'm looking forward to my job interview on Friday.
Frankly, I don't even know when I got my last raise. I get paid enough for the work I do.
I just celebrated my 16th year with my current employer. I've gotten 2 or maybe 3 "raises" in base pay in that time. I'm planning to retire by the end of 2024 so I do not expect to get a raise at the end of 2023.
Instead of raises, I get bonuses based on personal and company performance. When business is good, there will be several in the 2% range scattered throughout the year. There is usually a larger bonus at the end of the year, plus smaller profit sharing and discretionary 401(k) contributions.
2022's final cash bonus was in the 20% range. In 2009 I had to defer 20% of my pay because business was bad (I did eventually get paid for that; it just took a while).
I started work in Q3 of 1989. It's now Q3 of 2023. I have changed jobs 4 times in that period - 4-5 years for each of my first 4 employers, then this one. In 34 years, my salary has gone up 461%, based on 2022's final number. That's an average of 13% per year, NOT adjusted for inflation. Inflation probably eats 3% of that per year over that time frame, if we ignore 2023.
Beer Baron said:Datsun310Guy said:A raise? Is?
I am in commission sales - want more money? Go sell more.
If you earn a % of sales, then you automatically get a raise as prices increase.
No salesperson is paid a % of the selling price, they are paid a % of the profit. If The selling price goes up $100 but the cost goes up $100 as well, it's the same money to them.
If you got paid on MSRP all car salepeople would be selling Mercedes instead of Hyundais. A price increas does not magically increase pay of a salesperson.
Steve_Jones said:Beer Baron said:Datsun310Guy said:A raise? Is?
I am in commission sales - want more money? Go sell more.
If you earn a % of sales, then you automatically get a raise as prices increase.
No salesperson is paid a % of the selling price, they are paid a % of the profit. If The selling price goes up $100 but the cost goes up $100 as well, it's the same money to them.
If you got paid on MSRP all car salepeople would be selling Mercedes instead of Hyundais. A price increas does not magically increase pay of a salesperson.
Correct. % of profit. If profit doesn;t go up they don't make more.
Flynlow (FS) said:In reply to bobzilla :
Ah, apologies then. I usually post from my laptop, I do remember how tough it is to get the formatting and quotes to line up on mobile. Carry on! :)
And in the interest of full disclosure, I went back and searched the real estate thread, and I did post a couple times in the beginning and forgot about it...it was 3+ years ago, I think I've stayed out of it since. I stand by what I said there too, ha. It was a more interesting topic when it was covering financing and some of the intricacies of the market and tax code.
No worries. My screen is getting a bit touchy lately too so fine motor things suck.
bobzilla said:Flynlow (FS) said:In reply to bobzilla :
It bothers me that you snipped the quote and left my name attached to it, because it changes the context of that comment considerably...IE SV reX's first line was "I agree completely". May not have been deliberate on your part, but just as an FYI.
I am in no way a "Companies are all bad, Rich people are all bad, Capitalism is the root of all evil" person, and I avoided the real estate thread. I said, "Most full time jobs should pay a living wage", and I stand by that. I imagine over a beer SV reX and I (and most in this thread) would align on 95% of our views.
No reference to you. Trying to snip down to the relevant part on the phone is not the easiest to do.
A little OT, but this is hard enough on the computer. Formatting tools on this forum are extremely difficult.
A corporation is an accounting mechanism intended to capture a profit. It has no emotion or concern for employees. Humans that work for a corporation, on the other hand.. might (if you are lucky).
In my opinion, a business that calls itself a "family" is usually full of E36 M3. It is using that word to play with your emotions and convince you to commit more of your time and energy as if supporting a real family.
Beer Baron said:There are lots of ways to reward loyalty and experience - usually better than a miniscule pay increase. A good employer will figure that out if they want to retain valuable employees.
With my company, it's been through PTO and 401k matching. The longer you're here, the more PTO you can get and the higher the percentage match.
bobzilla said:Correct. % of profit. If profit doesn;t go up they don't make more.
If they can't figure out how to increase profit to keep up with inflation, they're going to go out of business.
In reply to Beer Baron :
They do, they increase prices. Which then has everyone whining that things cost too much and these people are just trying to get rich. It's a viscious cycle that doesn't stop.
Beer Baron said:bobzilla said:Correct. % of profit. If profit doesn;t go up they don't make more.
If they can't figure out how to increase profit to keep up with inflation, they're going to go out of business.
The percentage of profit doesn't have to increase to keep up with inflation, just hold steady. The pricing only has to increase to match inflation which would increase dollars of profit but not the percentage. So if the sales commission is a percentage of profit, it should keep up with inflation as prices do.
bobzilla said:In reply to Beer Baron :
They do, they increase prices. Which then has everyone whining that things cost too much and these people are just trying to get rich. It's a viscious cycle that doesn't stop.
I'd only make that complaint if the price increases exceed inflation and cause the company's profit margins to increase, as we've seen with grocery stores during the pandemic and fossil fuel companies during the Ukraine invasion.
From my first full-time minimum wage job to now, my income has increased by about 2740%. I've had many different jobs, starting as a general laborer and working up to where I am today. It's been quite the adventure.
The people who work for me get annual or biannual raises as well as bonuses. The last round of raises happened this past week and worked out to about 3-5%. That's the second raise this year because of inflation. Bonuses are usually another 5%-10% bump over base pay. Over the last 8-10 years or so most of them have seen pay increases of about 35%. The guy who has been here the longest has seen his pay increase about 3 times in 16 years. Almost everyone who works for me has been here for at least 8 years. I'm not here to screw anyone and they know it. They could probably move elsewhere to a bigger company and make a little more on their base pay but I work pretty hard to keep this a good place to work. I do my best to keep it from being me vs. them and more of an all-for-one team. So far it's working. I look out for them, they look out for me.
GameboyRMH said:Beer Baron said:bobzilla said:Correct. % of profit. If profit doesn;t go up they don't make more.
If they can't figure out how to increase profit to keep up with inflation, they're going to go out of business.
The percentage of profit doesn't have to increase to keep up with inflation, just hold steady. The pricing only has to increase to match inflation which would increase dollars of profit but not the percentage. So if the sales commission is a percentage of profit, it should keep up with inflation as prices do.
I think we're saying the same thing different ways. The profit margin should stay steady as a % of sales price, not as a strait dollar amount.
If your operating expenses increase by 5% and you increase sales prices increase by 5% to match, then your profit margin stays steady as a percentage, but increases in raw dollars. Therefor, a commission sales person earns 5% more for every unit sold.
The math: You make a widget with production costs (materials, payroll, overhead, etc) of $40. You sell it for $100, leaving a profit of $60. Sales person gets 10% commission for $6/unit.
Inflation happens. Operating costs increase 5%. They are now $42. You increase sales cost 5% to $105 to maintain profit margin, leaving a profit of $63. Sales person now gets a comission of $6.30/unit.
GameboyRMH said:bobzilla said:In reply to Beer Baron :
They do, they increase prices. Which then has everyone whining that things cost too much and these people are just trying to get rich. It's a viscious cycle that doesn't stop.
I'd only make that complaint if the price increases exceed inflation and cause the company's profit margins to increase, as we've seen with grocery stores during the pandemic and fossil fuel companies during the Ukraine invasion.
Or if my pay doesn't keep up with inflation, and the company doesn't pay me more even though they're selling their products for more.
Toyman! said:From my first full-time minimum wage job to now, my income has increased by about 2740%. I've had many different jobs, starting as a general laborer and working up to where I am today. It's been quite the adventure.
The people who work for me get annual or biannual raises as well as bonuses. The last round of raises happened this past week and worked out to about 3-5%. That's the second raise this year because of inflation. Bonuses are usually another 5%-10% bump over base pay. Over the last 8-10 years or so most of them have seen pay increases of about 35%. The guy who has been here the longest has seen his pay increase about 3 times in 16 years. Almost everyone who works for me has been here for at least 8 years. I'm not here to screw anyone and they know it. They could probably move elsewhere to a bigger company and make a little more on their base pay but I work pretty hard to keep this a good place to work. I do my best to keep it from being me vs. them and more of an all-for-one team. So far it's working. I look out for them, they look out for me.
Why do I all of a sudden want to work for you?
Toyman! said:From my first full-time minimum wage job to now, my income has increased by about 2740%. I've had many different jobs, starting as a general laborer and working up to where I am today. It's been quite the adventure.
The people who work for me get annual or biannual raises as well as bonuses. The last round of raises happened this past week and worked out to about 3-5%. That's the second raise this year because of inflation. Bonuses are usually another 5%-10% bump over base pay. Over the last 8-10 years or so most of them have seen pay increases of about 35%. The guy who has been here the longest has seen his pay increase about 3 times in 16 years. Almost everyone who works for me has been here for at least 8 years. I'm not here to screw anyone and they know it. They could probably move elsewhere to a bigger company and make a little more on their base pay but I work pretty hard to keep this a good place to work. I do my best to keep it from being me vs. them and more of an all-for-one team. So far it's working. I look out for them, they look out for me.
From the posts of yours I've seen describing how you run your business (this thread and elsewhere), you sound like someone I would either be proud to work for, or an example I would hope to model my own business on someday.
And it's also a good example of how taking care of your people and fostering a good company culture can be more important than the last dollar or few %. Folks need enough to live on, but once you've got the basics sorted out, working with good people, doing important/fun/meaningful/challenging work (whatever motivates you), and cutting each other as much slack as possible can take work from a four letter word to something else.
A better metric than numbers and percentages might be, do you feel as though you are better off today than in the past? Are you more or less stressed about life and money than you were? I am more comfortable but among my friends and family I seem to be in the minority. Most seem to feel that they are losing control of their future and it causes a lot of anger, stress and desperation.
bobzilla said:Toyman! said:From my first full-time minimum wage job to now, my income has increased by about 2740%. I've had many different jobs, starting as a general laborer and working up to where I am today. It's been quite the adventure.
The people who work for me get annual or biannual raises as well as bonuses. The last round of raises happened this past week and worked out to about 3-5%. That's the second raise this year because of inflation. Bonuses are usually another 5%-10% bump over base pay. Over the last 8-10 years or so most of them have seen pay increases of about 35%. The guy who has been here the longest has seen his pay increase about 3 times in 16 years. Almost everyone who works for me has been here for at least 8 years. I'm not here to screw anyone and they know it. They could probably move elsewhere to a bigger company and make a little more on their base pay but I work pretty hard to keep this a good place to work. I do my best to keep it from being me vs. them and more of an all-for-one team. So far it's working. I look out for them, they look out for me.
Why do I all of a sudden want to work for you?
Because you haven't been paying attention to his posts over the last 5-10 years that he's talked about this? I've wanted to work for him for years.
Meaning, Toyman gets it. Reward your employees and they'll reward you. And he seems to be able to price himself/his employees/his company at the top of the market, because they don't berkeley around and make things work.
In reply to mtn :
Nah,, I've seen them before but everytime he does I feel like my man-crush grows
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