Admitting Defeat

when the label says "Beer Baron" you can feel like a failure. for now you are just not being utilized most efficiently.

i have a pair of shoes that will make my back ache if i stand up in them for more than an hour. fix your footwear NOW.

sounds like you've come up with a couple of process improvements while simultaneously making mistakes in executing the process. perhaps your real calling is not in the nuts and bolts operation, but in the establishment of the operation itself?

and bill watterson is right.

I don't know much about the beer making world, but have you looked at Asheville NC. They have lots of smaller breweries there. They do have the hippies and stuff there, but they are young hippies and not old ones...

Also have you thought about getting an exercise program started. That really helped me deal with work stress. Now I pound out my frustrations in the gym instead of at work or at home.

Good luck man. I never would have imagined the brewery world was so rough. I had a buddy that worked part time at Terrapin in Athens GA and he loved it. Of course he was still living the college lifestyle so he was only in it for the free beer.

I'd be worried that brewing for all but the largest or most well known breweries would be much like working at a non-profit where they expect you to love your job so much that you'll work for free, work long hours, and give up your life to do so. It's a labor of love type of industry, and I sometimes think those types of industries capitalize on that.

Beer Baron wrote: I get enough sleep. I can pretty consistently get 6-7 hours of sleep every morning after work. It is not as much as I would like, and it is sometimes interrupted, but it is enough.

There are not to many sources that say 6 hours is enough sleep (my brief search didn't turn up any). Most recommend 7-9 and I have a feeling that 7 might not be enough either. Yes, everyone talks about how they are fine on 6 hours. But they are not.

Jeff wrote:

Beer Baron wrote: I get enough sleep. I can pretty consistently get 6-7 hours of sleep every morning after work. It is not as much as I would like, and it is sometimes interrupted, but it is enough.

There are not to many sources that say 6 hours is enough sleep (my brief search didn't turn up any). Most recommend 7-9 and I have a feeling that 7 might not be enough either. Yes, everyone talks about how they are fine on 6 hours. But they are not.

As they down their 4th cup of coffee by 10am. I feel like I really need about 9.

turboswede wrote: You are not a failure. So many people get into manager or supervisor positions not because they are good at it, but because they have seniority, etc.

that would be me ... I was very good at my job ... as a supervisor I suck .... leave me alone to do my job, and it will GET done .... make me the supervisor and the job will grind to a halt

PHeller wrote: I'd be worried that brewing for all but the largest or most well known breweries would be much like working at a non-profit where they expect you to love your job so much that you'll work for free, work long hours, and give up your life to do so. It's a labor of love type of industry, and I sometimes think those types of industries capitalize on that.

Good post, and this is why you unfortunately must avoid "labor of love" industries like a plague of super-AIDS. Get a boring job that pays the bills and open your own craft brewery on the side, if the brewery takes off then great for you, if not well then you still got to make beer as a hobby.

z31maniac wrote:

Jeff wrote:

Beer Baron wrote: I get enough sleep. I can pretty consistently get 6-7 hours of sleep every morning after work. It is not as much as I would like, and it is sometimes interrupted, but it is enough.

There are not to many sources that say 6 hours is enough sleep (my brief search didn't turn up any). Most recommend 7-9 and I have a feeling that 7 might not be enough either. Yes, everyone talks about how they are fine on 6 hours. But they are not.

As they down their 4th cup of coffee by 10am. I feel like I really need about 9.

I get more done at work in 6 hours after 8-10 hours of sleep than I do in 8 after 6-8 hours of sleep. Too bad the company doesn't quite feel the same way, and I have things I "need" to do at home that doesn't allow me to get to bed at 10:00PM every night.

AngryCorvair wrote: sounds like you've come up with a couple of process improvements while simultaneously making mistakes in executing the process. perhaps your real calling is not in the nuts and bolts operation, but in the establishment of the operation itself?

Amen to that. This has been on my mind a lot. I would love to start something up, and think I could do well. There are "big picture" people and "detail oriented" people. I am most definitely the former.

PHeller wrote: I'd be worried that brewing for all but the largest or most well known breweries would be much like working at a non-profit where they expect you to love your job so much that you'll work for free, work long hours, and give up your life to do so. It's a labor of love type of industry, and I sometimes think those types of industries capitalize on that.

It depends on the brewery and does not have much to do with size (except at the tiniest places which genuinely do not have the money, but who allow a lot of fun and creativity). That is a common thread in many (but not all) craft breweries. A particularly arrogant, rocky brewing company in San Diego is notorious for treating its floor workers as expendible. When I was at Schell's, they paid much better than here (a guy just starting on the bottling line made $4/hour more than what I have been making as a supervisor, in a place where cost of living was waaaay lower), worked more regular hours, and had a better sense of camaraderie. At the end of a work day, all the guys would grab a couple beers and stand outside the bottling line chatting. I was not going to do winters in a town where half the cars had block heaters, but I enjoyed working there.

The brewery I am at now is widely known for packing the most equipment into the smallest floor space. The result is a terrible floor-layout that creates a lot more work. Things are extra-rough here.

The guy I took over for moved on to a brewery where he is getting paid more to have fewer responsibilities, work better hours, and get to do fun stuff like char casks with flamethrowers.

octavious wrote: I don't know much about the beer making world, but have you looked at Asheville NC. They have lots of smaller breweries there. They do have the hippies and stuff there, but they are young hippies and not old ones...

Columbus is to help the fiancee. She has the high-paying, stable job. We have decided the best thing is to get her someplace where her company has a corporate office so that she can be more secure and have opportunities for advancement. She is starting to take on responsibilities from a higher up who will be retiring in the next year. She can not be promoted while she works remotely. That means she needs to be in either Des Moines or Columbus. I am pushing hard for the latter. If we can secure her position, that gives me a lot more flexibility to do something like start my own business.

If it were just me, I would actually be trying to jump to Ninkasi in OR to be close to my best friends, or to a place like Firestone Walker (who has a strong relationship with my brewing school) where I could be making more money to do easier work, in a less-isolated town.

Hippies isn't the problem. It's the age difference... specifically the near total lack of non-parent, non-druggy, 20-40-somethings.

If your fiancee can get transferred to Columbus earlier, maybe that's all you need as a pretext to call the potential employer there?

BoxheadTim wrote: If your fiancee can get transferred to Columbus earlier, maybe that's all you need as a pretext to call the potential employer there?

She spoke with her boss about it the other week. Her company is not initiating a move, but would be very happy to have her in an office, and there will be a cubicle waiting for her as soon as she gets there.

I am also the risk-taker of the two of us. I will be the one to make the leap first and organize living space and such.

Phone interview with another potential employer went really well today. I like the previous company I interviewed with a bit better. Both are good and would be big steps in the direction I want to go.

This one has mega-bonus of being only 2-blocks from where the Fiancee would be working.

Dumb question- not totally offtopic, how IS working in the beer industry? We have a metric E36 M3 ton of breweries micro style locally- and it sounds like it might be kinda fun. Plus I like beer.

@beerbaron: Man, I'm really sorry to hear all of this. It sounds like this may just not be a good fit. I hope this doesn't discourage you from doing what you love. E36 M3 man, we've gone from 0 breweries to FOUR in a tiny mountain town in the last 5 years. You're on a righteous path.

I am a total berkeleying night owl. If I could run my business from 6PM - 6AM, I totally would. Not so much for most folks, and that's not some goofy badge of honor E36 M3, I think it's genetic. If it wasn't, I'd already be in bed

Good luck man. When you make it big, send me a postcard...err...some bawler beer.

PS: I know IOU beer.

You are not defeated until you surrender. Build a future and move toward it. I like beer too

mndsm wrote: Dumb question- not totally offtopic, how IS working in the beer industry? We have a metric E36 M3 ton of breweries micro style locally- and it sounds like it might be kinda fun. Plus I like beer.

The answers to that are as varied as there are brewing companies.

Macro brewing: It is much like any other industrial production business. The commodity just happens to be beer.

I'm guessing you mean craft beer though...

On the whole, I like the craft beer industry. It has a lot of growth and produces a high quality product. There is a major social aspect to it, too. There is a definite culture to craft beer. Going to and pouring at events and such is a lot of fun.

The work is fairly repetitious and generally quite physical. You will be lifting and pouring large bags of malt stuff, scraping hops out of vessels, and doing a lot of scrubbing and cleaning. I do not see these as bad things.

How physical it is depends a lot on the efficiency and automation of equipment used. Most newer breweries or ones with the money to be updated use nice automation systems. You can generally control all the valves and temperatures you need from a single computer screen or control board. Some breweries are much more manual and you end up running all over the place, climbing ladders, and ducking under scaffolding to open valves and vents.

Generally the smaller the place, the more opportunity to be hands on and get creative, but lower the pay. This is not universally true though and depends a lot on the brewery and company culture.

Oh yeah, craft beer. IDK. I keep thinking I want to do something new and fun- and this intrigued me for some reason. I know E36 M3 about brewing beer in and of itself though, other than it's delicious when it's finished. I have no problems with learning/hard work though.

poopshovel wrote: Man, I'm really sorry to hear all of this. It sounds like this may just not be a good fit.

Yeah. I could write something longer. But that sums it up.

I admit to not reading every response, but I will chime in.

First, on the foot thing... Foot surgery is a pretty straight forward thing. The right Podiatrist can fix things and you'll be running marathons in two weeks. I have what they call Morton's Neuroma and also have rather excessive problems with callouses. The callouses they can help by re-aiming the bones so that they don't point in a direction that causes excess friction. The Morton's Neuroma is from the nerve getting pinched or moved between the tarsal bones. Its response is to build more sheath around the nerve which makes things worse. I am (at least for a man) a shoe whore. I love good-looking shoes. I have some awesome shoes... that I can't wear because they cause me intense pain. I end up wearing my sneakers because that's all I can wear. I have some really excellent Wolverine steel-toe work boots that I really NEED sometimes, but I put them on, walk downstairs, and I'm already limping.

As far as the job thing, I sometimes feel as if I'm a Gen-X whiner who just feels entitled to a cushy job, but here is what I'm finding: Back in the day, you had a Plant Foreman with a 7th grade education who knew everything about running the plant. He might not be a good hugger or like to burn incense and talk about his feelings, and the job might be tough, but E36 M3 got done. These days, the separation between lowly worker and spoon-fed CEO has become so massive that its impossible for either side to get anything done in a manner that satisfies either party. I saw that demonstrated excessively at Home Depot. On paper it looks like a fantastic job, but it was just corporate bullE36 M3.

The bottom line is (regardless of feet or job) you deserve to be happy, productive, and healthy... both emotionally and physically. Manifest it. Make it happen. In the process you'll probably make some choices that don't end up being better, but there are always other choices.

Look at me... I just lost my dream job at a Custom Shop building $500k cars, but I know there are other things.

(and thank goodness I could borrow some money from Mom)

curtis73 wrote: The bottom line is (regardless of feet or job) you deserve to be happy, productive, and healthy... both emotionally and physically. Manifest it. Make it happen.

I thought that needed repeating.

But man, I feel your pain. I have a job that pays all the bills, has good benefits, and a great location but I friggin HATE how we're treated (like children) and the expectations placed upon us. It took a lot of canceled plans, and adding a lot of time to a lot of projects, but the resumes finally went out (like it was going out of style).

So, from someone who feels like they're in a similar situation, I'm rootin for ya man.

Good luck

Hey BB, as someone working in craft beer now, I can commiserate. Everyone's popped the wrong clover off the ballvalve. The master brewer I work with just last week dumped almost 20bbl of lagering oktoberfest out before realizing his error. E36 M3 happens. If you are in a situation where you risk being fired or written up for an honest (yet mindless) mistake, then it's not you...

Re: the boots- I can totally relate. The first week with company issued boots was tortured. It wasn't until I spent my own money on some nice Dexter boots that I finally got comfortable and it made a huuuge difference. I suggest shopping around for the same. Nice part is- they're yours and you can take them to any brewery you damn well move to :p

With that said, I don't think it's too presumptuous to look for greener pastures. Your brewery has a knack for burning brewers out pretty quickly... I don't think it's you. Like you said, it's a poorly designed workflow with archaic equipment for the most part. E36 M3's going to go wrong sometimes and that's just the way it goes. If they are so unwilling to allow it, then you can be just as unwilling to work there.

What about trying to transfer to the new NC facility? Is that a possibility? Either way, there are TONS of 10-40bbl breweries in Columbus. I'm sure coming from where you are at now, you'd be able to find a spot at any of them within a couple weeks.

Good luck. Send me a pm if you want to vent more or if I can help with anything. I'm much lower than you on the totem pole in terms of experience, but I'd be happy to lend an ear.

Just thought I would chime in here and say it's probably not the shift itself that is causing the problems. I have worked that shift before, and have many friends who work that shift. In addition many are parents, who don't get to see their spouses at all because their schedules only work if one of them is home with the kids. And they aren't making mistakes from the shift.

Most likely it's just a poor work environment - sounds like you guys don't have a whole lot of respect from the management team. That can increase stress and make sleep difficult.

I certainly would not mention any difficulties with a new potential employer. Complain about your current situation and it just makes you look bad, not your job.

Your fiancee was at Nationwide, right? I'm guessing the place you're talking about is across from the convention center. I've only interacted with the brewmaster there from my perspective as a homebrewer, my opinion is he's a straight-up good guy.

Beer Baron wrote: Phone interview with another potential employer went really well today. I like the previous company I interviewed with a bit better. Both are good and would be big steps in the direction I want to go. This one has mega-bonus of being only 2-blocks from where the Fiancee would be working.

golfduke wrote: What about trying to transfer to the new NC facility? Is that a possibility? Either way, there are TONS of 10-40bbl breweries in Columbus. I'm sure coming from where you are at now, you'd be able to find a spot at any of them within a couple weeks. Good luck. Send me a pm if you want to vent more or if I can help with anything. I'm much lower than you on the totem pole in terms of experience, but I'd be happy to lend an ear.

Thanks for the offer man.

NC isn't really a possibility. It kind of is, but the fiancee and I have discussed and decide that the best thing for us as a couple is to solidify her career first, and for me to then find what I can there. That means getting her into an office in Columbus or Des Moines.

Coming from North Coast makes it very easy to find another job. The guy I took over from had to choose between offers from Firestone Walker and Lost Abbey/Port.

So far, I am 3/3 with breweries in Columbus wanting to have follow up conversations. The latest one I talked to doesn't even have a position open right now, and the guy wants to talk to his partners about if they could maybe add someone.

sjc wrote: Your fiancee was at Nationwide, right? I'm guessing the place you're talking about is across from the convention center. I've only interacted with the brewmaster there from my perspective as a homebrewer, my opinion is he's a straight-up good guy.

She is with Nationwide. This is a different brewery that is just about to open in another month or so. The one you're thinking of, I don't think I have sent a query to yet.