Angery people.

Regarding the concentration of wealth and power, I have no suggestions except to stop voting for candidates from the two major parties.

Regarding the sense that people are angry, absolutely. I think the always-connected 24/7 new cycle and social media create a feedback loop where people see angry people and acts of violence more often than ever before in the past and are able to add their anger to the mix. That said, statistically things are safer now than ever before. According to stats easily found on the 'net, violent crime and murder rates are about half of what they were in the early 90s. So a lot of this is altered perception as a result of the above and not actual reality.

In reply to frenchyd :

Your dad's world was different from the world you grew up in, and the world you grew up in was different from the world that you kids grew up in. That will not stop. We can't pick when we're alive, so you have to just do the best you can. Observe the world around you, make choices based on what you see, and be willing to be flexible along the way if it seems like the original plan isn't working out.

The anger thing is nothing new.  If you look at the written discourse of our founding fathers back between 1770 and at least 1820, anger and fear was used quite effectively to manipulate opinions on pretty much all issues.  Exactly what you see happening today.  If it's not A, then B will cause the nation to fall.  C wants us to be just like the UK, which is evil.  D wants us to be like France- who are slaughtering each other in the streets- which is evil.

Basically, if you look at the entire body of history, for whatever reason, humans tend toward being angry.

alfadriver said:

Basically, if you look at the entire body of history, for whatever reason, humans tend toward being angry.

Because blaming others has always been easier than acknowledging that you might be partially responsible for the E36 M3ty situation that you're in.

Mndsm said:

Idk, it has the potential for discussion. The school shooting thread made it a good long way before it got fished. 

 

That being said, I habe noticed an 8ncrease in anger...and I don't really know why. People are crabasses. Need to calm down and have a snapple. 

I am not sure why either. I have my opinion as I’m sure others do.  

I think a primary driver of the anger is over stimulation...  

Think about it this way, politics used to hit us only when we watched specific programs or picked up a newspaper. So, a few times a day.  You get time away from it to recharge.

NOW, with internet media, facebook, smartphones, alerts, etc...    you see this stuff CONSTANTLY.  It hammers you over and over and over.  Media companies earn profit by gaining your attention. The more in your face, the more they get rewarded.  The more they work you up, the more rewarded.  They engineer their product to be rewarded and earn profit.  Enter Alarmist news, then enter misleading news, and on the outskirts outright false news.  

If a media company can earn a bit more profit because making you PISSED over a topic makes you more engaged, get ready for them to figure out just the right buttons to push!

All of it in your face.  CONSTANTLY.  

Consider what this does to a person psychologically.   It doesnt take an especially weak person to be effected.  Ever seen a toddler have a meltdown after being overstimulated?  this is the adult version.

THIS is why the political parties pretty much want to kill each other.  THIS is why reasonable discourse is the exception rather than the rule.

There are economic factors that tie into all of this.  Income/wealth inequality, money controlling politics, etc.  Those go down the flounder hole.   The above shows why its like an upturned anthill these days though.

There's days I wish I was a sociology/psychology researcher.  One could make a fascinating paper out of the corollary between anger and media consumption over time through changing eras of media (internet emergence)

frenchyd said:

Mndsm said:

Idk, it has the potential for discussion. The school shooting thread made it a good long way before it got fished. 

 

That being said, I habe noticed an 8ncrease in anger...and I don't really know why. People are crabasses. Need to calm down and have a snapple. 

I am not sure why either. I have my opinion as I’m sure others do.  

Are you guys berkeleying serious? 

In reply to frenchyd :

It will never be like the 50's again.  There was a lot of low-hanging fruit.  Post-WWII, a world to rebuild, and America the only real powerhouse.  

That started to change in the 1960's, changed a LOT in the 1970's, and we're still dealing with a lot of those changes today.  

My dad and mom both worked, and built a good life for us.  But- the first house I ever bought was worth more at the time than the house my parents had owned since 1975.  I currently own my house and a rental property- something my parents never did.  My dad just recently retired, but before he did, the last year he was working, I was making more than he was.  

Anecdotes are but one data point.  But no one's life is cast in stone.  

I think a lot of this overlaps with the "Don't read the comments" thread. A lot of people are willing to post things online they would know to moderate in a face to face discussion. It's often possible to go through life without meeting people who share differing political views face to face - or at least, not having a polite discussion and realizing you hold differing political views. We've started viewing people who hold different views as "the enemy" rather than somebody who also wants to improve society but holds differing ideas about the best path to take. We're seeing the end result of sticking too closely to "Don't talk about politics, money, or religion" - at least not with people who think differently about them. We've become a nation of people who have difficulty resolving political disagreements - not to mention people who hold some rather confused notions of others' religious beliefs and lousy money management skills.

There's still plenty of room for somebody to get a startup together ad make decent money. A lot of the uber-rich, the Henry Fords of our time, (no pun on a recent startup intended...) have been computer science related, but you can find successful new companies that sell anything from plumbing services to underpants to cookies. I'm not disputing that there are parts of the country that are having rough patches or that there aren't real problems and obstacles we can do something about. But I don't think it's significantly worse than in the past couple centuries, either.

As for home ownership as a tool to build wealth - I'd disagree. Home ownership is a tool to get a place to live at a decent price. A house you live in doesn't put money in your pocket while you own it, is a lot of work to cash out, and when you do, your choices are to line up another one immediately and in the same market conditions or go back to being a renter.

Apexcarver said:

I think a primary driver of the anger is over stimulation...  

 

Think about it this way, politics used to hit us only when we watched specific programs or picked up a newspaper. So, a few times a day.  You get time away from it to recharge.

I completely agree.  

There's an interesting essay by Paul Graham (http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html), that was written at the "beginning" of the comment era of the interet (2008).  I was linked to it from a You Are Not So Smart podcast about disagreements which brought up an interesting point on even the non-commercial aspects of anger/disagreement, to wit that if you post something/write an article/comment on an existing thread, etc., that people that agree with the point will likely only write something "I agree," and rarely expand on that.

If you disagree, you're motivated to go on a soapbox and denounce whatever you disagree with (and possibly question their heritage, intelligence, etc). 

The net result is that a simple post may have 2000 "likes" which you don't really see, but it has 3 essay replies written arguing against it, and THAT's what you'll remember.

frenchyd said:

Streetwiseguy said:

I'm curious whether Canada or the US is the outlier here.  We have never been able to write off interest on a home mortgage.  Business interest only.   If that were the cause of mass shootings, Canada should be awash in blood.

Sorry that’s what you took from my comment.  It’s a symptom not the cause. 

To avoid making it too long I settled on one item rather than a whole  page. 

Here’s maybe a better example.  My Father with nothing more than a high school degree was able by himself to provide an above average middle class life. Nice home new car every two years regular vacations. Had a cabin by the lake, provided for a comfortable retirement, Sent me to college and  took care of others.  

I with a college degree, With the help of my late wife’s full time efforts, couldn't approach what he did. 

This is not the first time you've posted that about your dad...

Maybe you couldn't, but I'm 15 years younger than you, don't even have a high school education and I was able to do everything your dad did and maybe even more.  So it was possible and I still think it's possible today. Yes, things are different and it may have been easier back then, but I still believe it's possible.

Canadians can't deduct mortgage interest but we don't pay tax on the sale of our homes.

I don't like the media and I don't think they're innocent in this discussion. We've never had access to information like we do today and I think we've never been more uninformed.  With easy access to media on both sides, both social and otherwise, it's never been easier to both manipulate and access the message.

Generally speaking, property ownership is a tool for happiness.  In fact, the Constitution, where it says "pursuit of happiness"- they really mean "property".  ("Happiness" just sounded better, I guess)  So whatever property one owns, the characterization of that property defines how it will help you build wealth.  

A Home that one lives in helps one build wealth by stabilizing the cost of living.  If one buys a home with a 1000/month mortgage, in 20 years the mortgage will still be $1000/month (a bit more, due to insurance and taxes increasing inevitable, but not too much more) but in 20 years, rent on a comparable place will likely be $2000/month.   In 30 years, the house is paid for, so the monthly cost of living goes to 0 (plus taxes and insurance), while the renter is now paying $3000/ month.  

So that's how a home can create wealth.  

Property owned that one does not live in creates wealth in an entirely different manner- through the actual creation of an income stream instead of a passive savings/ stabilization of expenses.  Even if home values stay completely flat, owning a 200,000 home that one rents out, after 30 years mortgage on said place, one has a 200,000 asset that someone else essentially paid for.  And that one doesn't need to keep, to have a place to live.  

what makes me angry:  everything except getting a beejer.

what makes me not angry:  getting a beejer.

right now, i'm angry.

STM317 said:

alfadriver said:

Basically, if you look at the entire body of history, for whatever reason, humans tend toward being angry.

Because blaming others has always been easier than acknowledging that you might be partially responsible for the E36 M3ty situation that you're in.

Yea that only works so far. When every single person you have ever dealt with in your entire berkeleying life, from preschool, to high school, to adulthood has actively worked to berkeley you over and use you as a stepping stone to get ahead, you tend to get a bit angry. When showing kindness or compassion is used as a weakness and a way to get something, be it money, career advice or advancement, or just laughs, it really makes you wonder why you should even bother because Johnny Dickface is just going to walk all over you into a new promotion. 

With the sole exception being my mother, every single person I've interacted with on any regular basis at all in life, has berkeleyed me over to get themselves ahead or just because they can. My father, my grandfather (that miserable berkeleying vajajay who should have died in a fire), teachers, co-workers, fellow students. And what did I do to deserve it? I was the fat kid, the smart kid, the kid with glasses,and in later years, I was the guy who knew how to get things. But what did I actually do? Try to fit in, try to make friends, try to be nice to others so they'd be nice to me,and and all that got me was E36 M3 on. 

Invite all the other kids to birthday parties so no one shows up? Hand over my lunch or my money to help those without? Helped you cheat on that test or get your homework done on time? Just standing there? 

What a LOT of people need to realize is that their precious little angels are just gaping twats. God forbid anyone ever acknowledge it. No not MY baby, MY baby couldn't be rude my baby wouldn't have smashed you in the head with a toilet seat then flushed it. My baby wouldn't have put your head through the window on the school bus,and it certainly wasn't right for you to fight back against MY baby, despite being perfectly content sitting on the bus listening to your headphones on all day. 

Nobody wants to accept that they themselves are pieces of E36 M3 who've raised bigger pieces of E36 M3 because it doesn't fit in with their happy goal in life. 

Maybe I am angrier than a lot of people. I fully admit some of it being my fault, like not wearing a condom despite using other means of birth control. But a majority of the E36 M3 I've been put through in life had to do with things beyond my control. Maybe I'm a bad judge of character, or did I wear I sign saying pick on me relentlessly for the first 16 years of my life without knowing it? I certainly never asked to be the whipping boy, but it was the position I've fulfilled. How about going into job interviews and being told flat out "we can't hire you because your white, with your name we thought you were Mexican"? Or that "we reserve those shifts for highschool students" despite being a 17 year old college student?

Some of us just draw the short stick in life. Somebody has to, after all. 

Henry Ford became rich after having a solid middle class upbringing. His parents started with very little, his father having immigrated to the US, but worked their way up to farm owners and that was a way to wealth in their day. Very few people do what Henry Ford did, but just as many do it today as did it then. He's an outlier and there always will be outliers. The vast majority of wealthy people have built it up over generations and generations, and even those outliers usually had a few generations of solid growth in assets behind them. Few people are born in favelas and end up even middle class.

I'm just not sure that class mobility is any tougher now than it ever has been. Get a state college degree in a practical field with financial aid and you can get a middle class job. It's then up to you to build assets - your house doesn't count as it's not an income producing asset. You prioritize what is important to you and if it's not providing a future passive income stream then you won't have one, amazingly enough. It sounds like your dad planned for retirement and passive income which led to having a financial cushion later in life. There's some luck to that, but also decades of hard work and dedication, no matter what era you are in. Plenty of people in the 50s ended up destitute because they spent every cent that passed through their hands.

I'm an angry old white guy.  What makes me angry is oblivious people with their faces in their phones.  That and moral decay.  And the New England Patriots.  And people who feel entitled.  And entitlements.  And how every show on television doesn't just try to tell a story, but push an "agenda".  I could go on.  Grrrrr.

alfadriver said:

The anger thing is nothing new.  If you look at the written discourse of our founding fathers back between 1770 and at least 1820, anger and fear was used quite effectively to manipulate opinions on pretty much all issues.  Exactly what you see happening today.  If it's not A, then B will cause the nation to fall.  C wants us to be just like the UK, which is evil.  D wants us to be like France- who are slaughtering each other in the streets- which is evil.

Basically, if you look at the entire body of history, for whatever reason, humans tend toward being angry.

While you may have a point, I think it’s missing the mark.  America was founded by those who felt powerless to the crown. “ No taxation without representation” 

America rebelled against the power structure that controlled our lives.  As did the people of France. 

In reply to dculberson :

Once again, you and I find ourselves in agreement.  Well stated.  

Want to be a millionaire?  Here's the trick:  Put $250 every week into a retirement account.  

Wait 30 years.  

RevRico said:

STM317 said:

Because blaming others has always been easier than acknowledging that you might be partially responsible for the E36 M3ty situation that you're in.

Nobody wants to accept that they themselves are pieces of E36 M3 who've raised bigger pieces of E36 M3 because it doesn't fit in with their happy goal in life.

^^^^ I think we agree more than you might realize. 

Sometimes E36 M3ty stuff happens to good people. I'm sorry if that's the case for you. But if it's routinely happening over a lifetime, I'd have to reflect on what choices or attitudes might be contributing to those end results. An attitude of victimization can be poisonous, even if it's rightly earned inititially. Successful people have E36 M3ty stuff happen to them too, but they shake it off more easily and keep going.

There's this bit of info in an old book that says something like " All hard work brings a profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty. --  Proverbs 14:23"

It's been said that hard labour is its own reward.  How many truly feel that way today?

In reply to 1988RedT2 :

I read somewhere what I think must be the corollary to that:

"If there's easy ways to do something, and a hard way, the hard way isn't necessarily the right way to do it, but it's very seldom the wrong way."

Once upon a time you could "settle" things with the asshats of the world.  Now, with the proliferation of lawyers (and as a result, laws), more and more people act like complete tools but hide behind "the law" as if legal and right were even vaguely related. 

Could you imagine a movie like "The Purge" being made back in the 50's?  Of course not, but we are kept in a pressure cooker of society.  Vacations have shrunk to nearly nothing.  Leisure time has declined for decades.  There was a concern in the 50's that Americans were going to have too much time on their hands and entire industries were built up around keeping us entertained.  But as we have gone on the inevitible "inflation" of everything has brought prices to the absurd.  That wonderful middle class life people could attain on a pretty regular job was possible because stuff didn't cost very much.  CEOs earned 4-5 times what their employees did and were well off, now they earn several thousand times as much and everything becomes just that little bit more expensive.  Singers, actors, atheletes, etc, all earned a fair living but it wasn't the norm for each and every one to be an instant millionaire.  So tickets to each of their things (concert/movie/game/etc) have become prohibitively expensive.  I looked up tickets to see a modestly known singer recently thinking it would be a nice date for two.....$235 EACH!!  Welp, guess we'll redbox it that night.

Madison Avenue (advertising) has sold us all on this absurd life that everyone thinks they have a right to.  Media shows us people all over living this lifestyle.  The 0.1% rewrite the rules to take advantage and get ever richer.  And most of us kill ourselves just trying to keep up.

Fueled by Caffeine said:

xenu will save us. 

I think it's far more likely that JHVH-1 will save us.  At least I'm definitely hoping for that over Xenu.

In reply to RevRico :

STM317 said:

alfadriver said:

Basically, if you look at the entire body of history, for whatever reason, humans tend toward being angry.

Because blaming others has always been easier than acknowledging that you might be partially responsible for the E36 M3ty situation that you're in.

It may be part of it, but IMHO, it goes even deeper than that.  First, there seems a need to even have a problem.  Then there's a need to blame someone.  Anger isn't always about personal responsibility.  Or even projecting that onto other people who you are angry with.  Look at your post- it can come across as angry of how YOU project people who YOU think don't take personal responsibility just as easily as others blaming someone else for their predicament.

It's just another version of people looking to be angry. 

And that "need" to be angry is easy to manipulate to make you think something needs to be done, or something needs to be stopped- even if neither really need to be done.  Or that the end result has nothing to do with the reason something was done/stopped.