Another Choice

 When your car needs work and the dealership quotes you a high cost, GRMers have another choice. They can do it themselves.  The potential to save money is worth the effort in many cases.  

Most people  accept  a house from what's available, come up with a down payment, sign the paperwork and get on with their lives.  
If it's not what they really want, it's better than nothing.  
 

There is another way.  a GRM way. You can build what you want. Its not as easy but not only can you get exactly what you want, you can save money doing so.  
 

Building the average new house takes from 2500- 3000 man hours.  A 40 hour work week is 2080 hours in a year, so don't kid yourself. It isn't easy.  Nor do the banks make it easy.  
 

On the other hand,  you don't charge yourself for your own labor so however much of that labor you can do yourself, you save that cost. 
If in a rough calculations 1/2 of the cost of a new house is the labor it takes to build it, That's a potentially serious amount of money. 
How much? Well,  if the average home is north of $150,000 and 1/2 of that is labor. You're talking $75,000
 

How much of that money you actually save is completely up to you.  If you work diligently, doing your best and don't quit because it's not easy, then potentially you are a candidate to tackle this. 
 

But outside the box thinking can save you money on materials as well.  How much?  The typical piece of wood goes through 12-15 middle men's hands between the woodlot / Forest  and eventual user. 
knowing that a typical lumberyard bill for a home my size was $125,000. ( Yeh, it's 5500 sq ft so bigger than most ).   

I found a sawmill willing to work with me and what would have cost $870,000 at retail ( no there isn't an extra zero there) I bought for a shade over $25,000.  
You don't need inspection stamps on trim or many other uses for wood. Log cabins and Timberframes have a special place in the building code where they allow un-inspected  timbers.  Off the top of my head I think it's 6"x6" University of Wisconsin will give you load ratings. ( right on line) 

 But this  is a place where over building is called for. Structural demands can be met long before esthetic needs are met. In other words what is actually required,   looks flimsy. But  wood purchased directly is unbelievably affordable so go ahead and spend the  few extra bucks over just meeting code. 

I also found a fantastic deal on copper at the odd lots metal dealer. He had a pallet of 4'x8'
Cooper sheets twice as thick as usual for flashing. something like 320 sheets. This was just before the Chinese drove scrap prices through the roof. The copper was stuck away ina corner of the place and had been there for decades.  He Took $100 for the whole pallet. The scraps I saved and turned in about 15 years later returned  I got $156. For.  

Some bargains I took just because I liked them and figured I could work them in.  The stained glass was just such an example.  

There have been several reports here about people successfully tackling major projects and winding up with things and homes they are proud of. 
 

Take that approach and if you've been successful building/restoring/ modifying a car you probably can be a success at making your home the way you want it.  
 

The banks can be dealt with.  It's not as easy as banks make signing your life away  but you can either wind up with twice the house/ Shop / /.garage. Or 1/2 the cost. 
. Building a house or garage  is something that is actually easier than fixing or restoring a car.  Even scary electricity can be installed successfully without risk of shock. 
 

Building codes exist and there are people who's job it is to help you through them.Getting them to do that depends more on you than them. So approach them politely and ask.   Same with regard rules and regulations. 
 

A lot of the technical stuff can be handled by contractors. But you can still do the labor. Saving that money.  

When you select parts for your car do you just take what someone hands you?  Or do you do your research?  
 

About 15 years or so ago I built my own 3 car garage. I spent around $7500.00 in the slab and materials. I also used up a lot of favors during the first weekend to get the walls up. I was quoted $12000.00 to $16000.00 to have the garage I wanted built.

Back around 1970 my Dad contracted with a home builder to put up the shell for his current house.  The rest he contracted out or did himself.  Never borrowed a dime.

I can't even imagine doing it myself.

We built mom and dad's house and garage ourselves. With the exception of having the concrete floor poured by professionals we laid every concrete block, lifted every rafter beam, all the wiring/plumbing etc. It only took us about 5 years. paying cash and credit cards.

Wife and I designed our house and paid to have it built in 6 months. That was much better. 

Wife and I are wrapping up a project that we've been at for right at 18 months of weather-permitting work. We'll be done for about $6k, and the most similar professional-grade quote is in the $60-70k range.

Lots of obsessive research on best practices and component choices. If that research was counted in the man-hours invested column, it would probably double the total hours.

If the consideration is time/money, I'm not sure we'd do it again. Since we treat it as an opportunity to build something together, the shared experiences help to counterbalance the time/money consideration. So yeah, we'll probably wind up doing another big project ourselves.

frenchyd said:

 Building the average new house takes from 2500- 3000 man hours.  A 40 hour work week is 2080 hours in a year, so don't kid yourself. It isn't easy.  

 

There is a great deal of knowledge involved in being capable of applying those hours.  If I were to DIY starting with a construction knowledge base of zero, every hour of actual labor would be preceded by hours of YouTube or book reading / internet scouring.  Not to mention that the pros make things LOOK easy, that really are not.  A good drywall guy is skimming and floating things with ease while I'm sanding and swearing at the tape lines.   

Point being, skilled labor to novice labor is not apples to apples on total hours required.  Set a pro loose with the right tools and he'll have it framed up before I even figured out the right fasteners and tools required.  

I certainly appreciate the grassroots efforts and concepts and can-do attitude, but the variables in a complete construction job as a DIY effort is daunting.  

In reply to xflowgolf :

You are exactly correct.Thank you for pointing that out. Same as any accomplishment. Working on your cars for example. You do your research before tackling a repair or change.   

 On the other hand there is a deep reward doing it yourself that you don't get when you just buy.  I'm sitting in my great room proud of the work I did.  When I'm in my dotage I'll still enjoy my achievement.

I had no idea that I'd enjoy doing this as much as I do.  If you had told me when I started I would have over 31,000 (yes) hours in building this place I'd never believed you. Now I tell others I'll be done the day before they dig my grave, only semi serious. 

Not only that but knowledge is power.  You don't need to call the plumber when the sink backs up because you know where you put the clean out. You probably didn't skimp on pipe sizes to save every last dime.  Same with wiring or HVAC. Etc. The confidence that gives you will be reflected in all aspects of your life. 

JohnInKansas said:

Wife and I are wrapping up a project that we've been at for right at 18 months of weather-permitting work. We'll be done for about $6k, and the most similar professional-grade quote is in the $60-70k range.

Lots of obsessive research on best practices and component choices. If that research was counted in the man-hours invested column, it would probably double the total hours.

If the consideration is time/money, I'm not sure we'd do it again. Since we treat it as an opportunity to build something together, the shared experiences help to counterbalance the time/money consideration. So yeah, we'll probably wind up doing another big project ourselves.

That's  what I wanted with my late wife and children.  We had a family meeting and I asked if they would help me.  They all eagerly agreed to. 
Instead I found out getting actual help from them took more time  then the work they would have done. 
 

Yet early in the project I was hit with a sudden back problem from the seats in the new car.  Bed ridden for 3 weeks with winter approaching my oldest teenage daughter and her aunt stepped up and finished installing the foundation. ( ICF's ) 

So I understood that in a pinch I could get real help but the rest of the time they preferred not to help. It didn't matter,  they didn't enjoy it and I did. In those days I'd work my income job, come home and  put another 6+ hours in  on the house. Plus  15-16 hours a day on the weekends.  60 + hours a week plus my 40+ hour income job. 

bobzilla said:

We built mom and dad's house and garage ourselves. With the exception of having the concrete floor poured by professionals we laid every concrete block, lifted every rafter beam, all the wiring/plumbing etc. It only took us about 5 years. paying cash and credit cards.

Wife and I designed our house and paid to have it built in 6 months. That was much better. 

Better?  Only if you consider easier better.  When you work out in the gym doing pretend work, do you do a push-up and stop because it's easier?  
I do sincerely apologize for the snarky way that comes out.  
obviously you could have other priorities interests values etc.  They are indeed important and I don't mean to minimize them.  
 

What I found is that when I do real physical work on the house I'm sweating, grunting,  and in general wearing myself out. I need that to feel good.   
working from my own home without Gym membership to pay for or go to is a bonus. 

In reply to frenchyd :

I have plenty of things that make me sweat grunt and do real work. I have 2 acres to maintain, 4 cars and that now 15 year old house. We built the house through a contractor that built off my plans. We were stuck in a 1 bedroom apartment with 2 dogs, an entire house worth of furniture paying $900 a month in rent while working 45 hour weeks for me, 50-60 for the wife at the time. The time it would have taken me to build on my own, remember we only have about 8-9 months of workable weather, would have been at least 6-7 years. The rent alone, not even factoring the constant rent increases, would have been about $80k. Materials another $30-40k. Then factor in the need to pay for things that I could no longer do on my own like car maintenance, keeping mice out of the furniture in storage etc. It cost us $131k( and $12k of that was to the power company to bring electricity BACK to our lot, that we would have had to pay anyway) to have them build our house, to my standards in 6 months. 

At most, we paid an additional $9k to have it done in 6 months rather than 6 years, for 7 years we actually saved a grand. So no, this isn't always the best option even if you do have the skills to do it right. I can tell you that what I would have built wouldn't have looked half as nice. Things like drywall I can muddle through but it isn't pretty. I'd still have had to pay someone to install the HVAC as I don't have the equipment, license, knowledge or refrigerant to even do it. So in all honesty, we likely SAVED money building our house. 

I mean, if you have no job, have all the tools and income to do it on your own as your full time job, go for it. But the rest of the world isn't that lucky.

frenchyd said:

On the other hand,  you don't charge yourself for your own labor so however much of that labor you can do yourself, you save that cost. 
If in a rough calculations 1/2 of the cost of a new house is the labor it takes to build it, That's a potentially serious amount of money. 
How much? Well,  if the average home is north of $150,000 and 1/2 of that is labor. You're talking $75,000

Actually, that math only works if you put a zero value on your time. That's OK if the build (car or house) is a hobby project, but if you factor in that your time has value, the math above is wrong.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but it means that you need to come up with a better justification than "saving money". The other part is that you have to compare your work to the work of a good professional and discount your work based on the quality difference. Not that I'm saying you can't build to the same standard, but can you?

And yes, I do a some experience in construction - most of my step dad's family back in Germany is/was in the construction trade, either as contractors or as civil engineers. I've had plenty of experience in that sort of work as summer jobs back when I was in the equivalent of high school. I'd still pay someone to build a house if I wanted it finished and not as a hobby project.

Skills count!

I’m a E36 M3ty welder. If I want good welds, I’m sure as heck gonna hire a pro and not spend years developing technique. 

I respect what you’ve accomplished. It’s just not for everyone. 

Picture this...

Imagine a doctor who is a really good typist. He can type 120 words per minute. 

Does it make any sense for him to hire a secretary who can only type 30 wpm?

Actually, it does. Because his earning potential is vastly greater when he is performing medical services than when he is typing. 

Similarly, many people on this board have skills which enable them to earn money. Sometimes, it makes sense to pay someone else. 

I am a great supporter of DIYer efforts.  I think it is awesome when people accomplish things with their own 2 hands. I just think it is important to know when to draw the line. 

31,000 hours is an enormous amount of time. If your earning potential is $10 per hour, that’s $310,000. 

The average salary on this board is about $30 per hour. That would be nearly $1,000,000.

Thats amazing. 

BTW, skilled timber framers make about $45,000 per year. 

I can barely find the time to do basic maintenance on two cars, let alone build an entire house from scratch with nearly zero experience, required tools/equipment, supplies, etc etc. Not counting the countless hours of trying to research how to do everything, while likely berkeleying up along the way when I go start the construction.

Don't get me wrong. I'd absolutely love to build a house myself, but I also know my limitations. If I ever end up having a house built, it will be by a group of people who actually know what it is that they are doing. I'll see about helping out where I can to cut costs on both ends, but they'll still do the 90%+ of the actual construction.

Taking an x or xx amount of years to build one house is not attractive thought to me.

In reply to SVreX :

Take that 31,000 hours and break it down to what people can actually do if working. If you figure every weekend (ignoring rain, storms) and 15 hour days, you can get 30 hours per week. But because of winter, and the freeze you only have ~36 weeks per year you can work it. In our case, the after work time wasn't an option because it was a 45 minute drive each way, daylight hours etc. So, 30 hours per week (if you do NOTHING else), for 36 weeks per year means you can get 1080 hours in per year if every weekend you work on building your house. we'll be generous and round that to 1100. That is 28 years to build a house. 

28. Years. OK, well, we all get 2 weeks of vacation a year right? So lets add that. 15 hour days for another 10 days (you're already working those weekends) gets you to 1230 hours per year. I'll be generous again and call it 1300. Thats still just shy of 24 years. 

24. YEARS. At $900 per month in an apartment that's $260,000 in rent you had to pay, plus the 30-40k in materials and that doesn't even take into account the repairs you'd have to do on the things you've already built because its been 24 years. 

I guess I just like throwing my money away by pating someone $131k to build a house that I could have built on my own in 24 years for $300k

Way back- 25 years ago now- I thought I could do some of the remodel of my home.   Spending every evening and every weekend at my home while we lived in my fiance's apartment lasted almost an entire year.  All we managed to do was one new wall separating two bedrooms (so that both had real closets), putting up new drywall on damaged ceilings and damaged walls, and scraping some crappy textured paint off walls.  Oh, and refinishing the upper floor's wood floors.

Thankfully, we paid to have someone remodel the bathrooms and kitchens.

I will never do that again.  Let alone build a house.  Far better for my sanity and checkbook to pay someone to do it a lot quicker than i can.  I got the "This Old House" dream out of my system really early on.

Restoring my Miata is a totally different equation, as there's no timeline nor alternate car that I'm spending money on while it's sitting still.  

The only way I'd consider building my own home is if it were some remote location, way, way, way off grid, and could only use local materials.  And even then, I'd question my sanity.

bobzilla said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I have plenty of things that make me sweat grunt and do real work. I have 2 acres to maintain, 4 cars and that now 15 year old house. We built the house through a contractor that built off my plans. We were stuck in a 1 bedroom apartment with 2 dogs, an entire house worth of furniture paying $900 a month in rent while working 45 hour weeks for me, 50-60 for the wife at the time. The time it would have taken me to build on my own, remember we only have about 8-9 months of workable weather, would have been at least 6-7 years. The rent alone, not even factoring the constant rent increases, would have been about $80k. Materials another $30-40k. Then factor in the need to pay for things that I could no longer do on my own like car maintenance, keeping mice out of the furniture in storage etc. It cost us $131k( and $12k of that was to the power company to bring electricity BACK to our lot, that we would have had to pay anyway) to have them build our house, to my standards in 6 months. 

At most, we paid an additional $9k to have it done in 6 months rather than 6 years, for 7 years we actually saved a grand. So no, this isn't always the best option even if you do have the skills to do it right. I can tell you that what I would have built wouldn't have looked half as nice. Things like drywall I can muddle through but it isn't pretty. I'd still have had to pay someone to install the HVAC as I don't have the equipment, license, knowledge or refrigerant to even do it. So in all honesty, we likely SAVED money building our house. 

I mean, if you have no job, have all the tools and income to do it on your own as your full time job, go for it. But the rest of the world isn't that lucky.

I understand you don't know me. But I did enjoy what you said.  I worked at least a 40 hour week, Usually a whole lot more making an income.  Plus the 60 + hours a week I worked on the house.  
Tools?  When I started this I had a lot of Snap On tools I'd earned working as a foreign car mechanic. But I bought all my wood working tools and shop equipment as I went. 
Maybe you aren't familiar with Minnesota. Now we have winter. Serious winter. 30 - 40 below with wind chill sometimes much colder.  
My favorite memory is me nailing roofing boards on the entrance roof.  It was 30 below and I was climbing on a 27/12 pitch roof about 25 feet above the pavement. Probably in February. ( that's what the picture is about) 
 

Another memory was me climbing down the aluminum ladder  from the Not torn down portion of the house that our bedroom was in and walking across the great room with about 8 inches of snow in the dark to go to work. When I got home that afternoon I'd be putting up panels over that room.  
31,000 hours so far and counting.  
My Prior experience? Aside from watching this old house etc.? Well I took wood shop in 7 th grade and got an F. Then I built a grandfather clock from a kit and decided I could do this.  

This is ridiculous. It is the same reason that I pay someone to change the oil on my cars. I have the skills to do it myself. But frankly, even the grease monkey at the Jiffy Lube is going to be better at it than I am. I would do it a max of 6 times a year. It takes me about 2 hours to change the oil on a car, because I know I'm going to berkeley something up if I don't go slow. 

Similarly, my brother works in construction. My parents want to build an apartment into their existing garage. It would just be installing a floor, framing, putting in a ceiling, and drywall (and probably some other stuff that I'm missing, but really that is it - think put a space heater in it as far as HVAC goes, we're not even sure about putting in a toilet). My brother could do this NO PROBLEMO. But he lives 4 hours away; when he visits my parents he wants to go fishing or boating or whatever. He works overtime all the time anyways, more than he even wants. If dad were to pay him what he could make at home, he's paying 2x what it costs in the location where the work is actually happening. So even for someone with the skill, it doesn't always make sense if you value your time at all.

In reply to mtn :

I'm a college educated man who made well in excess of six figures a year flying around selling construction equipment.  Why would I compete with high school dropouts working construction until their next gig comes along?   

alfadriver said:

Way back- 25 years ago now- I thought I could do some of the remodel of my home.   Spending every evening and every weekend at my home while we lived in my fiance's apartment lasted almost an entire year.  All we managed to do was one new wall separating two bedrooms (so that both had real closets), putting up new drywall on damaged ceilings and damaged walls, and scraping some crappy textured paint off walls.  Oh, and refinishing the upper floor's wood floors.

Thankfully, we paid to have someone remodel the bathrooms and kitchens.

I will never do that again.  Let alone build a house.  Far better for my sanity and checkbook to pay someone to do it a lot quicker than i can.  I got the "This Old House" dream out of my system really early on.

Restoring my Miata is a totally different equation, as there's no timeline nor alternate car that I'm spending money on while it's sitting still.  

The only way I'd consider building my own home is if it were some remote location, way, way, way off grid, and could only use local materials.  And even then, I'd question my sanity.

Well I used mostly local materials. I could say a comment about the environment but as much as that's honestly important to me. I used local because they were cheaper and better.  
 

The same truth is why I started building my own.  It's cheaper.  Now 31,000 hours in someplace along there I started really enjoying the work and my results. 
 

Not everybody can or will build their own place.  
In fact most will sign on the dotted line and take what's available. 
 

frenchyd said:

In reply to mtn :

I'm a college educated man who made well in excess of six figures a year flying around selling construction equipment.  Why would I compete with high school dropouts working construction until their next gig comes along?   

Huh? What are you trying to say here? 

frenchyd said:

alfadriver said:

Way back- 25 years ago now- I thought I could do some of the remodel of my home.   Spending every evening and every weekend at my home while we lived in my fiance's apartment lasted almost an entire year.  All we managed to do was one new wall separating two bedrooms (so that both had real closets), putting up new drywall on damaged ceilings and damaged walls, and scraping some crappy textured paint off walls.  Oh, and refinishing the upper floor's wood floors.

Thankfully, we paid to have someone remodel the bathrooms and kitchens.

I will never do that again.  Let alone build a house.  Far better for my sanity and checkbook to pay someone to do it a lot quicker than i can.  I got the "This Old House" dream out of my system really early on.

Restoring my Miata is a totally different equation, as there's no timeline nor alternate car that I'm spending money on while it's sitting still.  

The only way I'd consider building my own home is if it were some remote location, way, way, way off grid, and could only use local materials.  And even then, I'd question my sanity.

 

The same truth is why I started building my own.  It's cheaper.  Now 31,000 hours in someplace along there I started really enjoying the work and my results. 
 

 

Only cheaper if you value your time at about $0.05 an hour dude. Most of us value it at a lot more than that. If you enjoy it, great, you're effectively getting free entertainment. Most of us don't especially because we have to live in the damn project. 31,000 hours is 10 berkeleying years of work, assuming 8 hours a day 365 days a year. berkeley that. 

Glad it worked for you. I have better things to do with my time, including work that I'm actually good at.

EDIT: And that isn't to same I'm not a DIYer. I've installed a sink, I've installed trim, painted rooms, rebuilt decks, etc. I own the tools, there are projects I'll do on my own. But I don't enjoy it, and I sure as hell am not giving up all of my free time to do it. Too many fish to catch, naps to take, hockey games to play/ref. 

BoxheadTim said:

frenchyd said:

On the other hand,  you don't charge yourself for your own labor so however much of that labor you can do yourself, you save that cost. 
If in a rough calculations 1/2 of the cost of a new house is the labor it takes to build it, That's a potentially serious amount of money. 
How much? Well,  if the average home is north of $150,000 and 1/2 of that is labor. You're talking $75,000

Actually, that math only works if you put a zero value on your time. That's OK if the build (car or house) is a hobby project, but if you factor in that your time has value, the math above is wrong.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but it means that you need to come up with a better justification than "saving money". The other part is that you have to compare your work to the work of a good professional and discount your work based on the quality difference. Not that I'm saying you can't build to the same standard, but can you?

And yes, I do a some experience in construction - most of my step dad's family back in Germany is/was in the construction trade, either as contractors or as civil engineers. I've had plenty of experience in that sort of work as summer jobs back when I was in the equivalent of high school. I'd still pay someone to build a house if I wanted it finished and not as a hobby project.

I flunked wood shop. In my youth everything I built with nails had at least two bent for every one  straight. 
prior to this I watched a few This Old House episodes.  Oh, and built a grandfather clock. 

mtn said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to mtn :

I'm a college educated man who made well in excess of six figures a year flying around selling construction equipment.  Why would I compete with high school dropouts working construction until their next gig comes along?   

Huh? What are you trying to say here? 

Ask yourself the question.  Only don't make it about building a house, make it about something you want to do.  
To be honest the money saving?  That so much Bull doo-doo.  True  and very nice but not the reason I did this.  
 

Same thing with building it my way, True and also very nice.  But again not the reason I did this. 
 

It's absolutely honest about my lack of prior skill or experience. So I could have really fallen flat on my face.  Crashed and burned. I risked everything I'd earned up to that point in my life.   ( Age 52). Talk about not risking what you can't afford to lose.  

We built our house the way we wanted it. Our house as a cookie cutter would have been cheaper than paying a good custom home builder to do it for us. You can have your house your way and not spend 24 years doing it.