Another Choice

SVreX said:

I spent 10 years of my life volunteering full time with Habitat for Humanity.  They build all over the the world. 

Part of what they need to do is assess the best and most cost effective techniques  in various parts of the world.  They have an entire department whose job it is to work with varying techniques called the Appropriate Technology Department. 

The job of the Appropriate Technology Department is to identify techniques that utilize locally available resources- labor, materials, etc. 

I worked in that department for a long time. That means I built with a lot of strange stuff. I’ve used ICF's, SIP's, Sod, Hay bails, Adobe, Stone, Timber, Log,   and Rubble. I’ve also used hand made blocks, compressed soil bricks, clay tiles, slate, waddle and daub, thatch, and several really weird ones like glass bottles, hand made cement tiles, tin cans, tires, soil roofs, and fly ash. 

In Papua New Guniea we carried a sawmill 30 miles into the jungle on foot and built houses on stilts from lumber we timbered directly on the site  

We also got donations from various manufacturers who wanted the exposure of highlighted their products. Residential metal studs, truss wall, and all kinds of variations of siding and finish products. Octagonal houses, Yurts, tree houses.

I’ve even done timber framing WITH Tedd Benson!

I really doubt there are very many people who have been exposed to more building methods than me. It’s been a thrill ride, and I have thoroughly enjoyed it. 

But I wouldn’t recommend almost any of these techniques to the vast majority of people.  Simply not a good fit.

Unless you live in the jungle! 

What I found is the supposedly faster SIP panels took forever especially in the cold weather when the glue flowed like solid rocks.  Each panel took me more than an hour to align and I had to be extremely creative to do it that quickly.  
ICF's on the other hand went together like lego's . I made a mistake in trying to save the scraps rather than tossing them. It just threw out of alignment the places to screw sheet rock into. Added a couple of hours to sheet rocking.  But easily enough dealt with. 
Just for information your map about Termites  is off. They are rare to non existent north of the Iowa border. Here the big issue is  carpenter ants.   Yes the Borax or whatever they put in keeps them out. But to be safe  I coated  all of them with a thick waterproofing sealant.  ( That I got in my hair)  

In Retrospect if I ever build another house (I won't ) stop at the foundation I'll do all the walls in ICF's 

Nor would I do a double timber frame. Massively too much work.  I'd just do the rubble pattern on the exterior.  I really like how that looks and while it took longer than bricks or stone it wasn't really too long. not fitting it inside of the timbers would have saved a significant amount of time.  
I did do the traditional masons obscene gesture in stone on several walls. Some see it, most dont. 
One other idea That I had that I wish had worked better was the rolled roof on the lakeside. 
I grew up looking at one on the other end of the lake. 
the cedar shingles lasted almost 50 years before they put shingles on. 
Steam bending all those shingles took forever plus several failed to remain bent. 
 

PS Thank you for your work with Habitst for humanity. 

Frenchy, I should apologize. I usually try pretty hard not to E36 M3 on other people's posts. I sometimes fail. You do you, and I'll try to refrain from negative comments. I'm really sorry about that.

Your house is beautiful.

In reply to frenchyd :

One point I'd like to make.  All that wood.  More than I needed but so affordable it was wrong to turn it down.  
When  I designed the house I counted each timbers, beam and board. then added 15% for defects and mistakes.  
 However I visited a timberframed house on the local parade of homes and heard the death watch beatle for my first time.  Or should I say I heard three death watch beetles.  
No way did I want to listen to them eating away at my timbers.  So I added another 5%.  Then he made me deals I couldn't pass up.  He had all this Fiddleback Maple over 800 bd ft.  He sorted it out and went looking for a market. Sitting outside it started to mold on the ends. Not all but visible on some. 10 cents a bd ft.  Tell me you wouldn't take that deal. I lost less tha 5% to mold ( spalting) 

Then he had odd lots. A couple hundred bd ft of Box elder ( with some really wild colors and patterns )  a few hundred of Ironwood.  Several thousand Ash.  Several thousand Tamarack , a few hundred hickory most sawn  8/4  which made perfect subflooring. But even the Tamarack which was 4/4 I found a use for.  All for only $500.  
Turns out I only found one Timber with a death watch beetle in it and 3 with  bore holes from their visiting. Those I cut up and burned. 
I didn't make the kitchen cabinets and bought them at the insistence of SWMBO   That  left me with a lot of unused Cherry   Plus about 10,000 bd ft  of surplus I wish I could find a worthy home for.  

dculberson said:

Frenchy, I should apologize. I usually try pretty hard not to E36 M3 on other people's posts. I sometimes fail. You do you, and I'll try to refrain from negative comments. I'm really sorry about that.

Your house is beautiful.

We all say things we wish we hadn't. I apologize  to you for putting things in a way that caused this.  
 

In reply to frenchyd :

The maps not wrong, silly!  That’s the US Forest Service’s map, zones based on their scientific studies for subterranean termites!  Haha!  

BoxheadTim said:

frenchyd said:

On the other hand,  you don't charge yourself for your own labor so however much of that labor you can do yourself, you save that cost. 
If in a rough calculations 1/2 of the cost of a new house is the labor it takes to build it, That's a potentially serious amount of money. 
How much? Well,  if the average home is north of $150,000 and 1/2 of that is labor. You're talking $75,000

Actually, that math only works if you put a zero value on your time. That's OK if the build (car or house) is a hobby project, but if you factor in that your time has value, the math above is wrong.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but it means that you need to come up with a better justification than "saving money". The other part is that you have to compare your work to the work of a good professional and discount your work based on the quality difference. Not that I'm saying you can't build to the same standard, but can you?

And yes, I do a some experience in construction - most of my step dad's family back in Germany is/was in the construction trade, either as contractors or as civil engineers. I've had plenty of experience in that sort of work as summer jobs back when I was in the equivalent of high school. I'd still pay someone to build a house if I wanted it finished and not as a hobby project.

You make an excellent point about  quality of work Professional grade or less. 
For 22 years I watched professionals build. ( I sold construction equipment to the trades etc) I'd like to think I picked up some knowledge and tricks.  
But most of it just didn't apply. 
in those 22 years I never saw a double timber frame built. (  few real Timberframes either)   
Since it was my Idea, I figured I had to solve the problems. 
Most pro's have real definite opinions on how things must be done. Not all agree with each other. I've seen serious damage done to schedules and plans while the "pros" worked it out.  
Since your connection to Germany perhaps that isn't an issue? I have this vision of trained and certified workers in Germany, Not like here in America where often the only requirement to work as a "pro" is a willingness to work.  
 

Second. How much do you charge to play a round of golf?  Watch TV? Go to a bar for a drink? 
There your time is free, for most of us so is working on our cars.  In my case so is working on my house.  Shockingly I like doing it. I'm happy. Relaxed and comfortable.  Maybe I've  got some music I like on or glance at the TV occasionally. 

SVreX said:

In reply to frenchyd :

The maps not wrong, silly!  That’s the US Forest Service’s map, zones based on their scientific studies for subterranean termites!  Haha!  

I think I'm reasonably observant. I know what Termites look like.  I promise  you, throw a tempting piece of wood on the ground and come back to check later. There may be carpenter ants but there sure won't be termites. 
Same  with cockroaches.   roach infested cardboard etc may be found in the summer but won't survive the winter. 

frenchyd said:

How much do you charge to play a round of golf?  Watch TV? Go to a bar for a drink? 
There your time is free, for most of us so is working on our cars.  In my case so is working on my house.  Shockingly I like doing it. I'm happy. Relaxed and comfortable.  Maybe I've  got some music I like on or glance at the TV occasionally. 

I think the point many people are making is that time is a valuable resource. Probably more valuable than money, after all you can't make or buy anymore time. You've chosen to spend a very large amount of your most precious resource building your house. You did that because you enjoyed it and wanted to feel a sense of satisfaction when it's completed. Others aren't willing or able to devote that much of a precious resource on a home and make their choices according to their own priorities. It's a matter of individual priorities.

There are many car builders here that get more satisfaction from building their projects and seeing them to completion than they do using the finished product and driving it. It's why recently completed project vehicles routinely get sold. You seem like that kind of person, only it's not a project car but a home. You enjoy the build enough to allocate lots of time to it. The good news is that you have something you can be proud of. Hopefully that gives you more satisfaction in the end than paying somebody else to do it for you and getting more time to actually live in it without being in a construction site. We should all be spending our resources in ways that make us the happiest we can be. If building your own home is worth it to you, then you've made the right choice. 

In reply to STM317 :

I completely understand I'm different from most. So are many on this site.  Personally I think that's what makes this such a vibrant site.  
Steam Railroads?  AMC race cars? In line six cylinder Fords? Airplanes, Boats, RV's, sawing trees into wood,  Model T Ford's, Hot rods, MGBGT V12 308 Ferrari with a different engine etc.  

There's  a lot of fun stuff here and room for other weird wonderful expressions.  The one thing that is a constant is frugal. Nobody comes on here to brag about how they just bought the fastest most expensive whammer Jammer.  They show how with work and creativeness they turned modest into magnificent.  
I'm hoping I can stir others into their own dream.  It doesn't have to reflect my ideas.  Shoot, as long as it's a do it yourself project, good for them. 

With regard to living in a construction site.  There are real advantages to that.  Efficient use of time, Chief among them. No drive to the work site, forgetting a tool or part.  Driving back  to get what you forgot and then driving back to the site.  
Same with restaurants you don't have to drive to or pay for.  Or bathrooms, etc. 

One other advantage to living at your construction site, If you never move out of your house, you won't need a new certificate of occupancy.  That's a few additional dollars (  or more depending on the location) plus a final inspection to get ready for. 

The secret to long term living in a construction site is keep one or two areas as neat as possible. As you finish off a room, finish it, paint hang paintings etc.   temptation is to do everything at once. Wait to trim, hang doors paint all of the rooms, put in the flooring etc.  then no room gets done and satisfaction is delayed.  To the wives and kids it's like dangling a treat just out of their reach, forever! 

frenchyd said:

SVreX said:

In reply to frenchyd :

The maps not wrong, silly!  That’s the US Forest Service’s map, zones based on their scientific studies for subterranean termites!  Haha!  

I think I'm reasonably observant. I know what Termites look like.  I promise  you, throw a tempting piece of wood on the ground and come back to check later. There may be carpenter ants but there sure won't be termites. 
Same  with cockroaches.   roach infested cardboard etc may be found in the summer but won't survive the winter. 

Maybe you should argue it with the US Forest Service.  

In reply to SVreX :

Let's talk about choices.  Like money?  How ya gonna pay for the garage or home improvement etc.

In reply to frenchyd :

That’s easy for me. I make money at my job. I spend it as I choose. 

Also, I am not adverse to borrowing money for things that produce revenue. My shop produces income.  I wouldn’t hesitate for a moment to borrow the money I’d need (because I’d want to get the the revenue producing moment as quickly as possible). I don’t like the cost of missed opportunities. 

Like you, I’ve out a lot of effort into my properties over the years, and I enjoy it. 

Unlike you, I have sold several times and cashed out my gains and earnings from my sweat equity. 

Saving money is just theoretical until you can cash out.  

Earnings I have made improving and selling property is a very large percentage of my net worth. 

In reply to SVreX :I wasn't thinking of guys like you and I, But for what it's worth we think alike. 
More about the younger people coming up or maybe someone starting over.  
 

Acquiring Appreciating assets are a good reason to borrow money. In quick rough terms real estate tends to appreciate at the rate of inflation. While the Neh sayers can point to plenty of exceptions. The reality is over time real estate has been a reliable predictable place to invest.  Yes, timing matters, but timing can benefit as well as cost. 
 

Note I said real estate, not homes. If you paint a car red instead of blue it doesn't make the car more valuable. And if you invest in improving performance on a car you either have to find the person who wants just those improvements and is willing to pay for them, or take a loss.  Same with stone countertops and painting your house Grey.   
 

Back to the source of money.  ( assuming you didn't just win the lottery or inherit a fortune )  family is often a source but depends on your relationship with that family member.  Seller Financing is often an option.  Depending on the sellers goals you might provide him with a solution to taxes etc.  Assuming you can convince the seller/s of your reliability and credit worthiness They might take a note, especially on bare land. After all it's not going anywhere. 
A customer of mine did that routinely. Signed a note  to the owner, arranged to pay off debt  and provide an income while developing a former farm into a housing development. 

then he used the value of the land's equity to finance  building the model homes.  
 

Next in line is a credit union. Smaller credit unions and neighborhood banks( not chains) often have more flexible loan policies especially with long time members. However small also means they might not be in a position to provide you with what you need internally. Thus need to conform to outside standards.  
 

frenchyd said:

Since your connection to Germany perhaps that isn't an issue? I have this vision of trained and certified workers in Germany, Not like here in America where often the only requirement to work as a "pro" is a willingness to work.  

Oh, you get the pros that can mess up your schedule something fierce in Germany as well. The main difference is that the barrier to entry is somewhat higher.
 

Second. How much do you charge to play a round of golf?  Watch TV? Go to a bar for a drink? 
There your time is free, for most of us so is working on our cars.  In my case so is working on my house.  Shockingly I like doing it. I'm happy. Relaxed and comfortable.  Maybe I've  got some music I like on or glance at the TV occasionally. 

We're actually on the same page here - doing this kind of work because you enjoy it really cool, and the end results you've shown speak for themselves. My objection was mainly around the "saving money" part as that tends to rub me (as a "part-time economist") the wrong way. As a hobby that you enjoy - hey, more power to you!

In reply to BoxheadTim :

I understand construction grinds to a halt when labor and management forget it's about the customer, not one winning over the other.  I assumed that's getting more rare in Germany like it is here.  

With regard to saving money, I just assumed that if working on something was a serious burden they'd just pay to have it done.  Also some people don't care where they live. Whatever is around is fine.  Traditional or modern, Siding or brick, doesn't matter.  They may have other points of focus. 
 

Early in this posting several people wrote about the money they saved doing their own work. I have to agree.  If you don't have to pay a labor bill,  that is a money saving.  It may not be a time saving or playing golf saving. But it does save money.  
Then they can choose what to spend that money savings on. 

Edit: I could see how you might not think of it as savings.  Could you think of it as a 2nd job?  A job you don't have to pay taxes on, or have social security deducted from your paycheck? 

I will agree that an experienced pro might do it faster and even better than a first time Newbie.  However,  having said that, when you do it, you don't need to hire a contractor who's prime job is to sell you his services. Services that include  sales, insurance, facilities, payroll,  and profit.  If you've decided to do something do you really need a salesman to sell you? You already likely have insurance, you're in or going to be in your facilities and you don't need to profit from doing the job.  
Likely  his employee  will do the work.