I'm considering looking at a 2019 Chevy 3500 with the L5P Duramax.
~45000 miles, 4X4, single rear tires, looks clean from the pics.
Asking a bit over $60k, which scares the bejeebus outta me, but new 1500's are pushing $80K, so what the heck.
Currently towing a 7500lb trailer, will probably go bigger at some point, and the current 1500 tow pig is 14 years old. Time to upgrade.
Thoughts?
TIA
In reply to SaltyDog :
The typical BS of modern diesel trucks with DEF systems is present. DEF tank heater failures, not regenerating the catalyst from insufficient driving which locks the truck in low-speed mode, yada yada yada. I don't think the L5P is as prone to head gasket failure as the engine before it (LML?). The coolant system is a bit finicky, prone to throwing low coolant lights if they aren't vacuum-bled (they often have air pockets from the factory) or sometimes they need the entire reservoir replaced. Modern diesel trucks aren't quite the anvil that the old 12-valve Cummins or 7.3L Powerstroke were, they're kind of fussy, both from the amount of power they are extracting and all the emissions stuff.
Diesel seems like expensive overkill for this. A modern 3500 gasser will tow 20k with the right configuration. It will cost less up front, and less to operate. Heck, the right 1500 will tow 12-15k.
STM317 said:Diesel seems like expensive overkill for this. A modern 3500 gasser will tow 20k with the right configuration. It will cost less up front, and less to operate. Heck, the right 1500 will tow 12-15k.
Very true for the current trailer.
My 08 Ram 1500 is rated at 9200lbs towing capacity.
I'm thinking of the next trailer or the one after that. Possibly a 5th wheel.
And we plan to travel more, so the diesel doesn't hurt. If buying new, I probably wouldn't shell out the extra cash.
I'm not looking specifically for a diesel, this truck just happens to have one.
Good Info, Nick. I'll do some reading.
Thanks for the input guys!
Coworker's DEF tank heater just went out on his 2021
Starting to get the "Don't go diesel" vibe!
Maybe that's why this truck has been on the lot for 2 months.
In reply to SaltyDog :
It doesn't help that diesel is $4/gal, they don't get the mpg like they used to (thanks eco nutcases), and the costlier engine maintenance upkeep.
If I was going to get a diesel, it would be a medium duty chassis international or similar.
I just drove my sisters 2012 F-350 with the 6.7 Powerstroke SRW crew cab and it is amazingly better and more capable than say my 2500 Suburban with the 6.0 gasser. And hers was used by some hot shotter who racked up 250,000 miles on it before she bought it last year. But it feels virtually new! Chassis is tight, everything works, the interior is nice, all the pixels work, no rust.
But her DEF system crapped out on it last year almost immediately after buying and deleting the whole thing cost her a few bucks.
So where is the sweet spot between the antique anvils and the new super-powerhouses? Which diesel would be the perfect one for forever ownership?
KyAllroad said:So where is the sweet spot between the antique anvils and the new super-powerhouses? Which diesel would be the perfect one for forever ownership?
At least for GM, I'd say the '07-'10 Duramax is the good one to get. They went to the newer body style in 2007, and with that they gained the LMM Duramax, which is rated at 360hp/660lb-ft, and '11 is when they added the DEF system, which adds extra expense and lots of maintenance woes.
KyAllroad said:I just drove my sisters 2012 F-350 with the 6.7 Powerstroke SRW crew cab and it is amazingly better and more capable than say my 2500 Suburban with the 6.0 gasser. And hers was used by some hot shotter who racked up 250,000 miles on it before she bought it last year. But it feels virtually new! Chassis is tight, everything works, the interior is nice, all the pixels work, no rust.
But her DEF system crapped out on it last year almost immediately after buying and deleting the whole thing cost her a few bucks.
So where is the sweet spot between the antique anvils and the new super-powerhouses? Which diesel would be the perfect one for forever ownership?
I just want to point out that none of the bolded things you rave about in your sister's truck are related to the type of fuel it uses. The DEF system that crapped out, requiring expensive repair or illegal removal is fuel specific.
There are a few reasons that modern diesels are losing favor among Average Joe homeowner types and fleets alike:
1) Cost. They cost a ton more up front. They cost more to maintain. And fuel is typically more expensive (often enough to offset any efficiency gains)
2) More capable than needed. You don't need to have the ability to tow 30k lbs if the heaviest thing you pull is a 5th wheel camper.
3) What's often overlooked somewhat is that new gas engines have gotten more powerful and efficient than the options 15 years ago. Like I said, a new gas 3500 can probably tow just as much or more than a diesel from 10 years ago.
If you have to have a diesel for some reason, but don't need the new capabilities, then I'd be looking at stuff from the 04-08 range. They won't be as capable as new stuff, but won't have most of the emissions controls either. You still have to deal with the fuel and maintenance costs though.
In reply to STM317 :
All true enough points. However I've rented a bunch of trucks in the past 3 years to tow a 9,000 lb bumper trailer and Enterprise has given me gas Dodge, diesel Dodge, gas Ford, and diesel Ford. While the "max capacity" for each may not be terribly different there is a hugely different sensation to towing with each. The diesels have the torque and just tow. The gassers have the horsepower and will hunt and shift for every hill. It might be ok and they may be engineered to do it, but the feel of the experience for the guy behind the wheel is that it's much more relaxing and less stressful to tow with diesel.
STM317 said:There are a few reasons that modern diesels are losing favor among Average Joe homeowner types and fleets alike:
A few thoughts:
- They cost more up front, but they also hold value better. Last year I sold my LBZ Duramax for $30K, a gas truck of the same configuration wouldn't have brought half of that.
- Fuel costs vary by region. Around here, diesel and premium unleaded usually cost about the same. The diesel will get somewhat better fuel economy while towing, but that's partially offset if you need to buy DEF. It's going to depend a lot on your usage pattern.
- Capability requirements depend on where you live. A turbo diesel seems a lot more attractive if you're regularly towing over 5000' mountain passes than if you're just towing on flat ground in the midwest.
Talked to my coworker: if you want a Duramax, avoid the '15s like the plague. Every Duramax he's ever done head gaskets on has been a '15 and they all needed them for no discernible reason. None of them were modified, a lot of them were low mileage, some of them didn't even have a fifth-wheel or a receiver ball in the hitch so it wasn't like they were being overworked.
Something else to be aware of: some shops have a higher labor rate for anything related to diesels, mostly due to the headaches involved. Our dealership is one of them, it's an extra $25 an hour labor if it's anything involving a diesel. Something to consider if you're going to keep it after warranty runs out. And, yeah, when they break, they can run up a bill in a hurry. There's a '10 Duramax here that needs injectors and a lift pump replaced, it's an $8000 bill.
KyAllroad said:In reply to STM317 :
All true enough points. However I've rented a bunch of trucks in the past 3 years to tow a 9,000 lb bumper trailer and Enterprise has given me gas Dodge, diesel Dodge, gas Ford, and diesel Ford. While the "max capacity" for each may not be terribly different there is a hugely different sensation to towing with each. The diesels have the torque and just tow. The gassers have the horsepower and will hunt and shift for every hill. It might be ok and they may be engineered to do it, but the feel of the experience for the guy behind the wheel is that it's much more relaxing and less stressful to tow with diesel.
Yeah, the diesels are probably 30% more capable in similar trucks. I'm not anti-diesel trust me. I'm just saying that modern gassers are pretty equivalent to older diesels in their capabilities. If a person tows frequently enough or heavy enough, a diesel can make sense. IF they tow a handful of times per year and putter around the rest of the time they're more likely to run into problems than if they'd gone with a gasser.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:STM317 said:There are a few reasons that modern diesels are losing favor among Average Joe homeowner types and fleets alike:
A few thoughts:
- They cost more up front, but they also hold value better. Last year I sold my LBZ Duramax for $30K, a gas truck of the same configuration wouldn't have brought half of that.
- Fuel costs vary by region. Around here, diesel and premium unleaded usually cost about the same. The diesel will get somewhat better fuel economy while towing, but that's partially offset if you need to buy DEF. It's going to depend a lot on your usage pattern.
- Capability requirements depend on where you live. A turbo diesel seems a lot more attractive if you're regularly towing over 5000' mountain passes than if you're just towing on flat ground in the midwest.
These are all good points, but to play devil's advocate:
-Your LBZ was peak Duramax (highly desirable) and equivalent gassers weren't that great. That's why there's a price disparity there. I'm suggesting that 12 years from now if we compare values of equivalent gas and diesel trucks the values are likely to be more similar. Because the newest diesels are more problematic than your LBZ, and also because the new gas engines are better than the 6.0's or 8.1's that were the gas alternative to the LBZ.
- Diesel and premium can certainly be close. The modern crop of gas engines run 87 octane though, and that difference adds up. So it might be 15mpg of $4.00 diesel + DEF vs 12mpg of $3.30 87 octane
- Agree about the benefits of forced induction at altitude
STM317 said:- Diesel and premium can certainly be close. The modern crop of gas engines run 87 octane though, and that difference adds up. So it might be 15mpg of $4.00 diesel + DEF vs 12mpg of $3.30 87 octane
I haven't owned one, but from what I've read while the modern gas truck engines can run 87 they're much happier on premium especially when towing. More power, better fuel economy, etc. Supposedly the ecoboost runs less boost when it's burning 87, for example.
Right now, around here it's like $4.75 for 87, $5 for diesel, $5.15 for 91.
As for future values, the elephant in the room is what's happening with EV trucks.
Also, something to keep in mind, there is a big DEF shortage predicted on the horizon. And if you don't have DEF in the truck, it doesn't run for long.
In reply to NickD :
Guess we gotta start peeing in DEF tanks then.
STM317 said:KyAllroad said:I just drove my sisters 2012 F-350 with the 6.7 Powerstroke SRW crew cab and it is amazingly better and more capable than say my 2500 Suburban with the 6.0 gasser. And hers was used by some hot shotter who racked up 250,000 miles on it before she bought it last year. But it feels virtually new! Chassis is tight, everything works, the interior is nice, all the pixels work, no rust.
But her DEF system crapped out on it last year almost immediately after buying and deleting the whole thing cost her a few bucks.
So where is the sweet spot between the antique anvils and the new super-powerhouses? Which diesel would be the perfect one for forever ownership?
I just want to point out that none of the bolded things you rave about in your sister's truck are related to the type of fuel it uses. The DEF system that crapped out, requiring expensive repair or illegal removal is fuel specific.
There are a few reasons that modern diesels are losing favor among Average Joe homeowner types and fleets alike:
1) Cost. They cost a ton more up front. They cost more to maintain. And fuel is typically more expensive (often enough to offset any efficiency gains)
2) More capable than needed. You don't need to have the ability to tow 30k lbs if the heaviest thing you pull is a 5th wheel camper.
3) What's often overlooked somewhat is that new gas engines have gotten more powerful and efficient than the options 15 years ago. Like I said, a new gas 3500 can probably tow just as much or more than a diesel from 10 years ago.
If you have to have a diesel for some reason, but don't need the new capabilities, then I'd be looking at stuff from the 04-08 range. They won't be as capable as new stuff, but won't have most of the emissions controls either. You still have to deal with the fuel and maintenance costs though.
I take issue with some of this. Yes, definitely cost more up front, but you can usually get all your money back at resale. Buy a $30k gas truck now, drive it for 200k, sell it for $4000. Buy a $30k diesel truck now, drive it for 200k, and sell it for $20,000. Maintenance is such a tiny difference. Most of the oil change intervals are pushing 10k miles these days, a fuel filter costs $20, and since they lack an entire ignition system they have no plugs/wires/coil to replace. I find that the maintenance cost difference is so insignificant.
Fuel efficiency is HUGE. If you aren't saving money on fuel by going diesel, then you're doing something terribly wrong. Diesel trucks often get as much as 50% better MPG, so unless you're paying $6 for diesel, you save money big time at the pump. You also can't compare 900 ft-lbs to 350 ft-lbs with a straight face.
Newer gas engines have become more efficient, but nowhere near diesel levels. I do agree however that diesel is way overkill for towing in the sub-8k range these days.
My sweet spot is pre-DPF duramaxes, specifically the LBZ/LLY of 05-07. VVT greatness, bulletproof Allison, plug in a tune and get zoomy.
10k OCIs only make sense if you are going to throw the vehicle away when it is three years old. Even then, one oil change at 10k costs more than two gasoline oil changes once you factor in the more expensive oil used in much greater quantity.
Hmm, I wonder how many people having DPF problems are using cheapo Rotella from a bucket and not the special formulations needed for a modern Diesel.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
So you're going to completely dismiss diesels because oil changes cost $100 a year instead of $50 even though the resale is usually 5 times higher?
And, no... 10k mile OCIs do not make a vehicle disposable in three years. The factory recommended oil change interval on an L5P is listed in the owner's manual as 10k miles.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:STM317 said:KyAllroad said:I just drove my sisters 2012 F-350 with the 6.7 Powerstroke SRW crew cab and it is amazingly better and more capable than say my 2500 Suburban with the 6.0 gasser. And hers was used by some hot shotter who racked up 250,000 miles on it before she bought it last year. But it feels virtually new! Chassis is tight, everything works, the interior is nice, all the pixels work, no rust.
But her DEF system crapped out on it last year almost immediately after buying and deleting the whole thing cost her a few bucks.
So where is the sweet spot between the antique anvils and the new super-powerhouses? Which diesel would be the perfect one for forever ownership?
I just want to point out that none of the bolded things you rave about in your sister's truck are related to the type of fuel it uses. The DEF system that crapped out, requiring expensive repair or illegal removal is fuel specific.
There are a few reasons that modern diesels are losing favor among Average Joe homeowner types and fleets alike:
1) Cost. They cost a ton more up front. They cost more to maintain. And fuel is typically more expensive (often enough to offset any efficiency gains)
2) More capable than needed. You don't need to have the ability to tow 30k lbs if the heaviest thing you pull is a 5th wheel camper.
3) What's often overlooked somewhat is that new gas engines have gotten more powerful and efficient than the options 15 years ago. Like I said, a new gas 3500 can probably tow just as much or more than a diesel from 10 years ago.
If you have to have a diesel for some reason, but don't need the new capabilities, then I'd be looking at stuff from the 04-08 range. They won't be as capable as new stuff, but won't have most of the emissions controls either. You still have to deal with the fuel and maintenance costs though.
I take issue with some of this. Yes, definitely cost more up front, but you can usually get all your money back at resale. Buy a $30k gas truck now, drive it for 200k, sell it for $4000. Buy a $30k diesel truck now, drive it for 200k, and sell it for $20,000. Maintenance is such a tiny difference. Most of the oil change intervals are pushing 10k miles these days, a fuel filter costs $20, and since they lack an entire ignition system they have no plugs/wires/coil to replace. I find that the maintenance cost difference is so insignificant.
Fuel efficiency is HUGE. If you aren't saving money on fuel by going diesel, then you're doing something terribly wrong. Diesel trucks often get as much as 50% better MPG, so unless you're paying $6 for diesel, you save money big time at the pump. You also can't compare 900 ft-lbs to 350 ft-lbs with a straight face.
Newer gas engines have become more efficient, but nowhere near diesel levels.
While this has historically been true, I'm not sure that it's currently the case, or will be moving forward. Ask yourself why diesels have historically had much lower depreciation than a gas equivalent.
- They were the only way that you could tow 15-20k lbs.
- They were far more reliable thanks to being so simple.
- They were under stressed and over built
- The equivalent gas engines/powertrains weren't very good
It seems to me like a new diesel has had its advantages eroded quite a bit. Compared to something from 10+ years ago, a modern diesel is far more likely to need expensive repair(s) during their 400k lifespan (fuel systems and emissions hardware specifically). They're more complex in both hardware and software/sensors. They're much less over built as marketing departments demand more and more capability. And they're not the only way to tow heavy things these days. For those reasons, I wouldn't be surprised to see the gap between gas/diesel resale shrink on stuff from say 2010 on.
SaltyDog said:STM317 said:Diesel seems like expensive overkill for this. A modern 3500 gasser will tow 20k with the right configuration. It will cost less up front, and less to operate. Heck, the right 1500 will tow 12-15k.
Very true for the current trailer.
My 08 Ram 1500 is rated at 9200lbs towing capacity.
I'm thinking of the next trailer or the one after that. Possibly a 5th wheel.
And we plan to travel more, so the diesel doesn't hurt. If buying new, I probably wouldn't shell out the extra cash.
I'm not looking specifically for a diesel, this truck just happens to have one.
Good Info, Nick. I'll do some reading.
Thanks for the input guys!
If you are considering a 5th wheel add dualies to the list. The rear axle load when pulling a fifth wheel can be huge.
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