SVreX wrote: Nice, except once again not true, since I didn't make a post about the tea party. It's kind of hard to take you seriously when you are calling an enormous percentage of the population ignorant while you are posting so many factually incorrect statements. If the shoe fits...
This is easy math. We know all you southern crackers are racist. And since we know that, obviously anyone you try to elect is also a racist. Duh.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:Wally wrote:LOL!Per Schroeder wrote: So...Do we have to start checking you guys for '88' tats?I have a Jewish friend who is a big Dale Jr fan. A few months ago he got an 88 tatooed on his upper arm. His mother horrified.
If you are getting NASCAR tats, you deserve this.
poopshovel wrote: I asked ASIDE from black folks, (who I later acknowledged SHOULD be excited to have a black president,) is anyone genuinely EXCITED to vote for this ass hat.
Well, I'm one who is proud to be an ass hat, as you like to so nicely say.
All I need to do is compare myself with 2008.
In 2008, my industry was on the brink of extinction. And while not popular at all, actions that this administration did directly saved 300,000 jobs. Indirectly, probably over 1,000,000. So whatever you say that this President is a job killer, I find that complete crap.
This action was a fraction that saved the financial industry, action that the previous President did.
To our country- which is more important- saving jobs that make stuff, or saving jobs that loan money?
Moving on- sales. 2008 and 2009 were among the worst recent years for sales. Late in 2009, a rebound started, and has continued into 2012. So for an economy that is in such a crapper, it's interesting to see that the market for a durable, but non permanent good, that is very expensive- the market for this good has been expanding for 3 years, running. Forgive me for thinking that the real estate market does not define our economy.
Healthcare- it's interesting to see how this is labeled socialsim, when, in fact, the whole IDEA behind insurance is pooling a mass toward a greater good- otherwise known as socialism. We seem to accept that it's ok for no name back box company can take my money, keep some for processing it, and keep some more for profits, lobbying, and advertising, and then tell me how to use the rest. And that is somehow better than an agency that just keeps processing money. Neither do anything except launder my money. I'm fully in favor of a national option for healthcare like Medicade- the worse numbers I've seen for that is 5% overhead, but even doubling that to 10% is better than the for pofit 13.5% I've found, and far better than the private firms who are complaning about the healthcare bills 20something percent reqirement. It's about money- making sure the most comes back to the docotors who treat us. Medicare >> for profit insurance.
Deficit. First of all, for you who think that the Bush years were not so bad, I scold you for not noticing that neither the wars in Iraq or Afganistan were ever counted on his budgets. Now that they are, it's amazing how much it costs us, isn't it? And is it that shocking that 1) continuing what we did in the face of dropping revenues would be a problem? Further, the theory of spending to lessen a recession is a direct result of forced ballancing from the Great Depression- where there's a good theory that the lack of government spending helped lengthen and deepen the depression that we were in.
Besides, ass hats like Romney, who make their money by gambling on stuff, pay a tax rate half that of people who really earn it. If we tax things on an equal basis, a lof of our debts and defitcits will go away. Before you claim that they will take their money and run- ask yourself- where? It's time to raise taxes for those who don't actually do anything but trade. If you want to benefit those who directly invest in flegling companies or are selling the only house they've owned for a decade, fine- write the laws that way. Not for a person who gambles on a home, stock, or dividen value and sells it a year later. It's not cool that 99.9% of capitol gains taxes are on trades as opposed to direct investments.
The whole anti union thing here is very old. Yes, they have not done themselves any favors, but one must realize that they are negotiating with people who they know are making money hand over fist. Yes, the protections of those who don't work is bad, but if you look at the big picture, MOST unions members are hard workers who contribute to making stuff that we buy. They are paid well enough that they can buy your STUFF. If we don't have enough people making and buying each others stuff, we are going to go down, hard, and fast.
Wars- optional, and this President has gotten us out of one, is getting us out of another, and the "third" didn't even last 6 months. Funny how we bitch over this one, but we didn't over the last one. Until now, at least.
Regulations. You all think that regulation is job busting. Well, that's crap. We sell stuff- a lot of it. And there are probably 100-200 engineers who have to work on meeting JUST the emissions regulations, let alone the rest of them. As a result of the regulations here, cars are cleaner, safer, and more efficient. The jobs to cover them are very good, and well paying- so that each one of them can buy a lot of stuff that YOU make. It's also pretty clear that "free market" isn't capable of managing itself. Banking keeps trying to de-regulate, and every time they get a chance, we find a recession based on bad and very greedy decision. We see that industry will be happy to pollute to make a buck, without regard to who they are harming. We STILL find that, even with a lot of regulation. Food safety, factories, autos, mining, lumber- you name it, every industry has shown a knack for hurting a lot of people just to make money- regulation is how you stop that. Yes, it sucks that many regulations are badly written, but that's the funny thing about laws- they can be amended to be better. It also sucks when corporations use regulations to make things worse- again, they CAN be re-written.
Enough of my ranting.
He!! yes I'm proud to vote for President Brack Obama. Call me an ass hat if you want, but throwing names just makes me think of you and who you want as president as a lesser person. I'm proud to be a Democrat, and admit that I'm far from perfect, and I'm proud to be left leaning liberal. I'm proud that I would like to see gay marriage happen, since heterosexuals have done a great job by themsleves of ruining that institution.
If you don't like that- F off.
Dang alfa, he said Obama was an asshat, not you.
In reply to Curmudgeon:
Well, he made some good points in his excitement about being called an asshat.
I just like the word asshat. It is funny to think about. Assmunch is good too.
Alfa makes some good points on regulation. Just look at China. Their pollution is so bad you can see it from space. The Embassy we have in Bejing gives HOURLY pollution reports to the americans there.
China does have regulations concerning pollution, but those agencies are paper tigers with no bite to back things up.. until people start dying.
As for regulating banking. Find me a single industry we deregulated that hasn't imploded?
And yes.. in order to make this country again, we have to have good jobs here so people can buy stuff. If you ship off all your manufactoring, you are saving money in the short run, but soon enough, all those workers who used to make a good enough wage to afford the stuff you now make more cheaply simply won't be able to afford it.
We have passed this buck enough over the length of my lifetime. It is time that somebody do something about the issue. Short term gains is just a suicidal way to run a business.. or a government
In reply to mad_machine:
I think everybody has that same thought about manufacturing. The question is what to make. We do a decent job with cars (or at least MB, Honda, Ford, Toyota, BMW, Hyundai etc. do). We do a good job with really large machinery. What else can the US make competitively?
alfadriver wrote:poopshovel wrote: I asked ASIDE from black folks, (who I later acknowledged SHOULD be excited to have a black president,) is anyone genuinely EXCITED to vote for this ass hat.Well, I'm one who is proud to be an ass hat, as you like to so nicely say. All I need to do is compare myself with 2008. In 2008, my industry was on the brink of extinction. And while not popular at all, actions that this administration did directly saved 300,000 jobs. Indirectly, probably over 1,000,000. So whatever you say that this President is a job killer, I find that complete crap. This action was a fraction that saved the financial industry, action that the previous President did. To our country- which is more important- saving jobs that make stuff, or saving jobs that loan money? Moving on- sales. 2008 and 2009 were among the worst recent years for sales. Late in 2009, a rebound started, and has continued into 2012. So for an economy that is in such a crapper, it's interesting to see that the market for a durable, but non permanent good, that is very expensive- the market for this good has been expanding for 3 years, running. Forgive me for thinking that the real estate market does not define our economy. Healthcare- it's interesting to see how this is labeled socialsim, when, in fact, the whole IDEA behind insurance is pooling a mass toward a greater good- otherwise known as socialism. We seem to accept that it's ok for no name back box company can take my money, keep some for processing it, and keep some more for profits, lobbying, and advertising, and then tell me how to use the rest. And that is somehow better than an agency that just keeps processing money. Neither do anything except launder my money. I'm fully in favor of a national option for healthcare like Medicade- the worse numbers I've seen for that is 5% overhead, but even doubling that to 10% is better than the for pofit 13.5% I've found, and far better than the private firms who are complaning about the healthcare bills 20something percent reqirement. It's about money- making sure the most comes back to the docotors who treat us. Medicare >> for profit insurance. Deficit. First of all, for you who think that the Bush years were not so bad, I scold you for not noticing that neither the wars in Iraq or Afganistan were ever counted on his budgets. Now that they are, it's amazing how much it costs us, isn't it? And is it that shocking that 1) continuing what we did in the face of dropping revenues would be a problem? Further, the theory of spending to lessen a recession is a direct result of forced ballancing from the Great Depression- where there's a good theory that the lack of government spending helped lengthen and deepen the depression that we were in. Besides, ass hats like Romney, who make their money by gambling on stuff, pay a tax rate half that of people who really earn it. If we tax things on an equal basis, a lof of our debts and defitcits will go away. Before you claim that they will take their money and run- ask yourself- where? It's time to raise taxes for those who don't actually do anything but trade. If you want to benefit those who directly invest in flegling companies or are selling the only house they've owned for a decade, fine- write the laws that way. Not for a person who gambles on a home, stock, or dividen value and sells it a year later. It's not cool that 99.9% of capitol gains taxes are on trades as opposed to direct investments. The whole anti union thing here is very old. Yes, they have not done themselves any favors, but one must realize that they are negotiating with people who they know are making money hand over fist. Yes, the protections of those who don't work is bad, but if you look at the big picture, MOST unions members are hard workers who contribute to making stuff that we buy. They are paid well enough that they can buy your STUFF. If we don't have enough people making and buying each others stuff, we are going to go down, hard, and fast. Wars- optional, and this President has gotten us out of one, is getting us out of another, and the "third" didn't even last 6 months. Funny how we bitch over this one, but we didn't over the last one. Until now, at least. Regulations. You all think that regulation is job busting. Well, that's crap. We sell stuff- a lot of it. And there are probably 100-200 engineers who have to work on meeting JUST the emissions regulations, let alone the rest of them. As a result of the regulations here, cars are cleaner, safer, and more efficient. The jobs to cover them are very good, and well paying- so that each one of them can buy a lot of stuff that YOU make. It's also pretty clear that "free market" isn't capable of managing itself. Banking keeps trying to de-regulate, and every time they get a chance, we find a recession based on bad and very greedy decision. We see that industry will be happy to pollute to make a buck, without regard to who they are harming. We STILL find that, even with a lot of regulation. Food safety, factories, autos, mining, lumber- you name it, every industry has shown a knack for hurting a lot of people just to make money- regulation is how you stop that. Yes, it sucks that many regulations are badly written, but that's the funny thing about laws- they can be amended to be better. It also sucks when corporations use regulations to make things worse- again, they CAN be re-written. Enough of my ranting. He!! yes I'm proud to vote for President Brack Obama. Call me an ass hat if you want, but throwing names just makes me think of you and who you want as president as a lesser person. I'm proud to be a Democrat, and admit that I'm far from perfect, and I'm proud to be left leaning liberal. I'm proud that I would like to see gay marriage happen, since heterosexuals have done a great job by themsleves of ruining that institution. If you don't like that- F off.
Hi Alphadriver,
As a conservative that thinks Obama is the asshat to end all asshats, I’d like to complement you on what reads as about the best possible case that can be made for your camps views.
Obviously, I don’t agree with your positions but I do acknowledge that you’ve presented a logical and defensible case for them.
Take care,
Otto Maddox wrote: I just like the word asshat. It is funny to think about. Assmunch is good too.
I like to use "asshattery" when ever possible even though it makes absolutely no sense. If I can work douchenozzle in somehow, even better.
Example (father of the year award winner too): "Hey douchenozzles - knock off the asshattery down there or I'll punch you right in the berkeleying throat... and keep your filthy dick beaters out of the fridge."
poopshovel wrote: I asked ASIDE from black folks, (who I later acknowledged SHOULD be excited to have a black president,) is anyone genuinely EXCITED to vote for this ass hat.
Over other available options who have a chance? Absolutely. douchenozzle asshattery
alfadriver wrote: A well thought out and worded position.
Although I don't agree with your assessment of Obama, Medicare etc. your reasoning was thought provoking and I think you made some good points. This is quite refreshing after reading a majority of the posts in this thread.
Otto Maddox wrote: In reply to mad_machine: I think everybody has that same thought about manufacturing. The question is what to make. We do a decent job with cars (or at least MB, Honda, Ford, Toyota, BMW, Hyundai etc. do). We do a good job with really large machinery. What else can the US make competitively?
Our manufacturing sector still produces something like $500 billion more per year than China $2 Trillion vs 1.5.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:Otto Maddox wrote: I just like the word asshat. It is funny to think about. Assmunch is good too.I like to use "asshattery" when ever possible even though it makes absolutely no sense. If I can work douchenozzle in somehow, even better. Example (father of the year award winner too): "Hey douchenozzles - knock off the asshattery down there or I'll punch you right in the berkeleying throat... and keep your filthy dick beaters out of the fridge."
lol...I have a buddy who's fond of "Douchepump"...hes an odd fellow
Otto Maddox wrote: What else can the US make competitively?
Craftsman tools now have a made in china sticker on them...how best to rebuild the American middle class? With American made tools to build it up with. Try as I might, finding an American made bench vice this past christmas that I could go put my hands on before I paid was impossible. I remember a similar thread about Angle Grinders.
Id pay $23 more for an American made vice than its Chinese counterpart, anyday...
Greg Voth wrote:alfadriver wrote: A well thought out and worded position.Although I don't agree with your assessment of Obama, Medicare etc. your reasoning was thought provoking and I think you made some good points. This is quite refreshing after reading a majority of the posts in this thread.
+10000.
4cylndrfury wrote:Otto Maddox wrote: What else can the US make competitively?Craftsman tools now have a made in china sticker on them...how best to rebuild the American middle class? With American made tools to build it up with. Try as I might, finding an American made bench vice this past christmas that I could go put my hands on before I paid was impossible. I remember a similar thread about Angle Grinders. Id pay $23 more for an American made vice than its Chinese counterpart, anyday...
my uncle is a fireman in the D/FW area, and his chief has had a standing bet: $200 for the first person to bring him a spatula that was made in the USA. he's been looking since he got there 4 or 5 years ago, and the bet had been going for some time before then. he finally won the bet when they went to Maine over the summer, and he found a guy making/selling them up there. he bought a bunch of them to bring back and collected his $200. i don't recall that they were all that more expensive than a "nice" made in china one either.
Strizzo wrote: his chief has had a standing bet: $200 for the first person to bring him a spatula that was made in the USA...
I'd have made one for him right there in front of him with some E36 M3 I found laying in the fire house. $200 is a lot of scratch but it ain't worth driving to Maine if you own a freakin' tin snip.
Greg Voth wrote:alfadriver wrote: A well thought out and worded position.Although I don't agree with your assessment of Obama, Medicare etc. your reasoning was thought provoking and I think you made some good points. This is quite refreshing after reading a majority of the posts in this thread.
Thank you.
My biggest pet peve with the Deomocrats that are part of the government is they don't seem to have any pride in the lables. If you are going to take on healthcare, have some pride it your vote, and be proud to be called a liberal or progressive. Don't let the name calling affect you.
I look at the pride of onwership of views and names in the Republican party, and all I can do is cringe that there's nobody fighting to be the most liberal. If they are, there's not a debate in "who's the most liberal, and it's me" like we see in the debates for the Republican rep. If you can take pride in who you are, then you can be more honest in WHY you are making the decisions you are making. And I suspect that both the left leaning and the right leaning media will have less to fight over- left seems to be overly defensive of the name attacks of the right.
Anyway, I'm proud to vote for what you call an ass hat. He's not only save my industry, he's giving me work to do all the way to retirement (and I actually very much like working on that). And on that note, alone, I will vote that way.
alfadriver wrote: Anyway, I'm proud to vote for what you call an ass hat. He's not only save my industry, he's giving me work to do all the way to retirement (and I actually very much like working on that). And on that note, alone, I will vote that way.
Would you feel that way if he hadn't saved your industry?
Just seems like the typical "I benefitted, so of course it's good" type of argument.
RX Reven' wrote: Hi Alphadriver, As a conservative that thinks Obama is the asshat to end all asshats, I’d like to complement you on what reads as about the best possible case that can be made for your camps views. Obviously, I don’t agree with your positions but I do acknowledge that you’ve presented a logical and defensible case for them. Take care,
Allow me to insert an opinion somewhere in the middle:
As an Independent with strong Libertarian ideals, I agree with Eric, aka Alfadriver, in principle but not in execution.
Frankly, I loathe the ways in which Democrats have embraced liberal stances and have continually expanded the role of government as a surrogate protector/parent and have discounted personal accountability. To use an old phrase, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" and Democrats and Republicans (lately) have only increased the speed limit on a pothole-riddled path.
Republicans, otoh, took an opposing extreme path by rewarding greed without accountability. The party also alienated many people by co-opting the "religious right" in order to bolster its' voting base; that was a big mistake. If one seeks to sway the moral compass, start at home and stay away from a debate podium.
The "personal responsibility" aspect (or lack there of) is something both parties have in common and both should be ashamed.
As far as the 2012 elections, I'm in the ABO (anyone but Obama) camp as I see his vision as radically different from what is intended and documented in the COTUS. His ambitions and subsequent policies have only reinforced my thoughts that he must be replaced. I'm sorry, but steering towards a euro-centric style of government worked (for them) but it is now unraveling. To think the "we" can do it better without the same result is (again, IMO) delusional. At this point in time, social issues are (at best) secondary in the election process. This country has to address spending and revenue first.
Eric makes eloquent and valid points; RX Reven has an equally valid opinion, too. But the solution is somewhere in the middle.
z31maniac wrote:alfadriver wrote: Anyway, I'm proud to vote for what you call an ass hat. He's not only save my industry, he's giving me work to do all the way to retirement (and I actually very much like working on that). And on that note, alone, I will vote that way.Would you feel that way if he hadn't saved your industry? Just seems like the typical "I benefitted, so of course it's good" type of argument.
Much like the typical welfare recipient. 
The US car industry shot itself in the foot over and over until it nearly bled itself to death. The foreign companies saw this and used it to profit. It took the big shakeup to turn things around and frankly I'd not have shed a tear if GM and Chrysler had gone under.
It looks to me like GM and Chrysler are still building the same stuff they built before, telling me they haven't really learned from their little off course excursion.
Ford was building crap as well but at least pulled their heads out of their collective butt and started building decent, or at least better, products (except V6 Mustang driveshafts! ) without the government getting involved.
So I am going to say The O did NOT save alfadriver's job. 
Not sure why he'd use that as a basis to keep voting for him.
I don't have a problem with the policies, I have a problem with Obama seemingly never stopping his campaigning. I have a problem with his inability to break the gridlock of the house and senate. And I have a problem with the rampant spending.
As far as healthcare reform: As a Massachusetts resident (with government run health insurance) I can plainly tell you that it's not worth it. It doesn't cost less. The coverage isn't better and the paperwork is twice as thick. The politicians are quick to brag that 98 percent of residents have health insurance while ignoring the fact that we have the second highest debt-per-resident in the country.
I pay 5% state income tax, more than $8,000 a year in property tax on a 1,700 sq. foot house on 2 acres, and I don't even know what the sales tax is because I black out when I look at receipts.
I don't have a problem with Barack Obama the man. I have a problem with Barack Obama the leader.
In reply to alfadriver:
I will admit you raise some good points, and provoke some interesting thoughts, but I can't agree with the logic or conclusions in some of your points.
All I need to do is compare myself to where I was in 2008.
Yes, your industry was on the brink of extinction. And it was by its own hands that it was in this situation. With the exception of your company (Ford) - poor financial management, poor quality, lack of product planning, badge engineering, and sheer arrogance put the American auto industry in that position. While it may be debatable if the bailouts were a indeed wise and fruitful idea, it is not the "why" but the "how" that infuriates so many people. The Obama administration sent in its own people who proceeded to give existing US bankruptcy law the middle finger and gave Union debts priority over other secured debts that were above the Union in pecking order of debt repayment by law. No matter the intention, this looked like the administration rewarding the Union's election support with a sweetheart deal.
Both the handouts to the financial industry and the auto industry caused heartburn because people could only stand by and watch as people that seemed to think they knew better than the taxpayers gave away money (that we didn't, and still don't have) to private industry. They gave this money to people why had by all rights, berkeleyed the dog, and were getting saved with very few consequences. It wasn't right when Bush 2 did it, and it wasn't any more right when Obama did it. Also, these jobs in the financial sector and auto sector don't exist in a vacuum. If these companies had folded, the demand for a product is still there, and a better, faster company would have filled the void created by the demise of these points of supply.
The 2009 auto sales rebound started because of the CARS (cash for clunkers) program. This was another example of spending money the taxpayers didn't have to spend (read: adding more to the gigantic deficit) to artificially inflate demand for new hard goods for an extremely short amount of time. It also had the consequence of removing affordable, basic transportation from the market and destroying goods that still had value for no logical reason.
As for healthcare, the passed legislation is a textbook example of failure to define a problem's core and fixing that rather than attempting to remedy a consequence. Don't get me wrong - there is currently a huge healthcare problem in this country - but it isn't that people don't have insurance. It's that health care is too damn expensive. People can't afford to pay out of pocket for simple procedures, and the huge cost of procedures causes insurance premiums to be high, so that people can't afford that either. Meanwhile, the health care industry blames the insurance companies and they blame the health care industry right back. Requiring the purchase of health insurance will not fix the problem. And frankly, as long as interstate health insurance competition is not legal, I'm not sure where the Federal government has the constitutional right to do this if they aren't trying to use a tortured interpretation of the commerce clause.
The Deficit - It isn't right for Obama to spend more than the government takes from the taxpayers, it wasn't right when Bush 2 did it, it wasn't right when any president before them did it. We should have a balanced budget Amendment to the Constitution and we should have it now.
Taxes, more specifically Capital Gains taxes, bring out a gut reaction in people. They think that people that make more money should pay more income tax than people that make less money, and they are right. When they say they should pay a higher percentage of their income, I have a tough time buying in. And when people say that capital gains tax should be higher, I say they are downright wrong. You said yourself, people such as Romney gamble with their money, and when they are right, make a lot of money in turn. However, if you want to encourage people to risk their assets with investments (and build the economy), the wrong way to do it is to tax them a huge rate for return on investment. These people invest their money rather than sitting on it and we should encourage that.
Unions are a topic that have been beat to death with this board. Fundamentally, I don't have a problem with unions. What I do have a problem with are asshats like Ron Gettlefinger who promote the entitlement attitude that Unions develop after they have outlived their purpose. Yes, everyone should be able to earn themselves a living, but a better living should come from hard work and expanding one's skill sets, knowledge base, usefulness, and work ethic. A life of comfort and wealth is not a right, it is a privilege pursuant to these things.
Wars? We can't afford them. I know you won't like to hear it, but getting OBL and exiting Iraq would have happened under any president, the American people were sick of Iraq and wanted out. It's time to come home from Afghanistan as well.
Regulation - this is a big pet peeve of mine. I work in the electric power industry, and the regulation imposed on us in the last 3 years is simply unbelievable. It was sold under the guise of improving reliability - which it hasn't. It has created more paperwork, though, and more fear in the industry because we can be fined hugely or worse for violating these regulations. Just like the new banking regulations, it has created more jobs. However, these jobs are one of two things: Positions within industry that exist solely to meet regulation, and therefore do not contribute income to the business whatsoever, and are merely an expense; or positions within a federal bureaucracy which are funded by the taxpayers, again with money that we don't have. These positions are generally well paying, but they are solely expenses; they generate no income. This cost is easy to spread around if you are a large company, but makes it prohibitively expensive for small business to compete in highly regulated markets, which stifles competition. Regulation didn't prevent the bank meltdowns of 3 years ago, and to think that adding more regulation will prevent it in the future is merely the definition of insanity.
While I respect your opinions, there is just no way I can support 4 more years of the current administration.
To say that black people elected Obama is just dumb. Black people only make up 12% of our population.
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