In reply to Rodan :
My stainless barreled PSA consistently outperforms my buddy's DD. Now, the furniture and general finish is nowhere even near the ballpark. I still need a new charge handle... and the trigger is *fine*
Havent handled the Ruger, though I'm generally a fan of the company.
jmabarone said:With that said, 5.56/.223 will take down any game you're going to come across in the SE.
A .223 might take down the game, but I'd rather not shoot a bear or elk with it. It seems inhumane unless you're absolutely confident in your shot placement.
Yes, there are a small number of elk in NC, and the herd is growing, slowly. 
In reply to tuna55 :
Using the correct eye is more important than using the correct hand. Your off hand does a lot of work on a rifle, anyway. I would lean towards a left handed rifle or ambi at the minimum.
If you don't want to reload, go .308. If you want to reload, 6.5 Creedmoore is getting so dang popular, ammo is going to stay easier to find than anything else made for that range window. .243 would also be good, but barrels don't last as long if you want to shoot a lot. Components can be cheaper, though, so in the end it is likely a wash.
If the zombies rise up and you are hunting for food, a .223 will kill anything on this continent, if you wait for it to drink.
ARs are nice and plentiful. I prefer other options because I am weird, or stupid, or both. Other options tend to be more expensive.
Datapoint: a lightweight AR15 and 150 rounds of ammo in mags weighs about 10 pounds. 150 rounds of .308 in mags weighs about 10 pounds. Consider a hunting bolt gun and an AR15, with some ammo for the first and a bit of ammo for the second. That can be lighter and cheaper than a semi-auto .308 and enough ammo to do the two jobs. I seem to recall that it was common for designated marksmen, when issued an SR25, to carry an M4 as well.
matthewmcl said:In reply to tuna55 :
Datapoint: a lightweight AR and 150 rounds of ammo in mags weighs about 10 pounds. 150 rounds of .308 in mags weighs about 10 pounds. Consider a hunting bolt gun and an AR, with a some ammo for the first and a bit of ammo for the second. That can be lighter and cheaper than a semi-auto .308 and enough ammo to do the two jobs. I seem to recall that it was common for designated marksmen, when issued an SR25, to carry an M4 as well.
+1 to that. You can get an AR10 from PSA right now for 800 or an AR15 for 500 and then something like a 243/308/30-06 Savage Axis for 350. No compromising to get either job done.
I still want something in .30-06. No need, just wants.
matthewmcl said:In reply to tuna55 :
Using the correct eye is more important than using the correct hand. Your off hand does a lot of work on a rifle, anyway. I would lean towards a left handed rifle or ambi at the minimum.
If you don't want to reload, go .308. If you want to reload, 6.5 Creedmoore is getting so dang popular, ammo is going to stay easier to find than anything else made for that range window. .243 would also be good, but barrels don't last as long if you want to shoot a lot. Components can be cheaper, though, so in the end it is likely a wash.
If the zombies rise up and you are hunting for food, a .223 will kill anything on this continent, if you wait for it to drink.
ARs are nice and plentiful. I prefer other options because I am weird, or stupid, or both. Other options tend to be more expensive.
Datapoint: a lightweight AR15 and 150 rounds of ammo in mags weighs about 10 pounds. 150 rounds of .308 in mags weighs about 10 pounds. Consider a hunting bolt gun and an AR15, with some ammo for the first and a bit of ammo for the second. That can be lighter and cheaper than a semi-auto .308 and enough ammo to do the two jobs. I seem to recall that it was common for designated marksmen, when issued an SR25, to carry an M4 as well.
Interesting point there.
I included the eye issue because I suspected a leftie rifle would be better for me. I'm an okay shot with a pistol, but lousy with a rifle right handed.
If a bolt in addition to a semi, then open up the ammo a bit. Why 308 or 30-06 or 30-30 or 300 BLK or 6.5... no reloading, I don't need another new hobby.
In reply to tuna55 :
308 over the others for a bunch of reasons. Better than 30-06 because marginally cheaper bullets, and more and cheaper options in semi-auto. Better than 30-30 because wildly better availability and these days quite a bit cheaper rounds too. 300blackout is a solid option at close range and allows the use of the smaller and cheaper ar15 platform. No real range for hunting, but excellent for self defense, especially using subsonic rounds and a can.
6.5cm is nice. Very nice. Same platforms, better (potential) long range, but costs quite a bit more for each pull. It may get cheaper, but I don't think it'll ever get to surplus 7.62 nato territory. Not that 308 is quite that cheap anymore.
Having bought my first big boy rifle in the middle of Covid, at the worst time for pricing and availability, there was never a time when I couldn't find stock on shelves. In a worst case scenario, that counts for a lot.
If looking strictly for a bolt gun, it's hard to justify 308 over 30-06. You'll spend 10% more on ammo, and you'll feel each shot a bit harder, but there's a reason 30-06 has been a standard for 115 years.
Unrelated to the topic at hand: I wish I had gotten the free SBR tax stamp this year for my first AR build.
In reply to jmabarone :
Just hang out here in the pistol pool. The water is fine.
barefootcyborg5000 said:In reply to jmabarone :
Just hang out here in the pistol pool. The water is fine.
Oh, don't have a pistol (or brace), but could have swapped with some people to "have" one while registering it. First build was from a stripped lower.
As an aside, the unloved 6.8 SPC (and variants) for the AR-15 will generate more energy than the 5.56 at realistic hunting ranges and there is no need for two rifles, as it's just an upper away. It's also a large enough caliber to be legal in most (if not all) jurisdictions which require a minimum bullet diameter for hunting.
The ammunition is more expensive than the 5.56, but if you make 6.8 your hunting cartridge you don't need thousands of them.
In reply to tuna55 :
Bet this was not on your radar but it will do everything you asked for.
IWI Tavor 7 .308 Win 16.5 Barrel Semi Auto
https://iwi.us/product/tavor-7-7-62-nato-16-5-barrel/
Other choices I would look at are:
SCAR H
Or
Robinson Armes XCR with the standard barrel.
.300BLK is a lot of fun to play with (especially suppressed), but it's a toy cartridge. Supersonic, it's basically a much more expensive 7.62x39/30-30. Subsonic it's a pointy .45ACP ballistically. At 100yds there's nearly a FOOT difference in POI between a 130gr super and a 200gr sub... impossible to have single zero that's useful. I have an AR and a TC Contender in .300BLK, and had a bolt action, and they're fun, but I would never recommend them as anything other than a range toy, especially in place of a .30 cal hunting gun.
.308 at least allows you to tap into milsurp ammo if nothing else is available, and availability commercially seems to be as good or better than other .30 cal hunting ammo. I have a 6.5CM, and it's a great caliber, but expensive and sometimes hard to find if you don't load your own. Ballistically, it isn't significantly better than .308 until you get out to 400+ yards.
As noted, 5.56 will take anything you need to on the continent if it gets to that point. A 5.56 AR is a fine defensive rifle... easy to learn to use and be effective with, and easy to pack a meaningful amount of ammo. PSA makes a really good gun for the $$$, and their basic 16" AR is still under $600. Everyone should have at least one 5.56 AR.
WRT eye dominance and shooting... Cross dominance is easy with a pistol, as someone already noted. Just bring the gun up to the proper eye. With a rifle, it's more difficult. A few years ago, I was dealing with a cataract in my right eye (right handed, right eyed), and I had to adapt to shooting cross-dominant with my left eye until I could get in for surgery. Handguns were easy. Rifles required a lot more work, because you have to shoot of the shoulder on the same side as the dominant eye, but it's doable. I was already doing quite a bit of support side training, and this helped. You just have to do it until your body accepts it as normal.
In reply to dean1484 :
Wow, I didn't know Robinson was even still around. I remember when they started up... great concept, but never really took off and faded out of the limelight when the piston AR fad withered away.
In reply to Rodan :
An XCR-L is my go to. I am on my second. Still a good buy for what you get.
I am now wanting that Tavor in 308. I have an x95 and yes all my AR 15s are cool but if I had to bug out and could only take one rifle it would be my X95. 16 inch barrel in a compact platform that is military proven. The whole bull pup trigger thing is way over blown. It is a military trigger. It is fine. I think people blame the trigger as more of an excuse for poor skill. After 500-1000 rounds the x95 brake in and everything about there operation gets significantly better. To have one on 308 would be really cool. That would just make it better. It would add range and stopping power in a nice compact platform with a decent barrel length. Sign me up for one of those!!!
Something to note. I have read that anything in 6.5cm will need the barrel replaced much more frequently than barrels chambered in 308. Don't know why specifically but I have heard this from more than one gunsmith. So if I was heading to the hills because things have gone sideways I would take a 308.
In reply to jmabarone :
You mean alerted the ATF to what you have?
I did this and complied with the rules for mine. I'm still not sure I did the right thing. Also, just the other day a 7.62x39 10.5" upper followed me home and now I don't know whether I want to do another SBR or just pin and weld a muzzle device on it.
Also, 7.62x39. . . because I needed another caliber in the closet, of COURSE I did.
Rodan said:In reply to dean1484 :
Wow, I didn't know Robinson was even still around. I remember when they started up... great concept, but never really took off and faded out of the limelight when the piston AR fad withered away.
I did not know it either. My son and I were eating dinner and I had him read tuna's question and it was his suggestion. We both thought of the SCAR H and the Tavor in 308 was my choice for the same reason I have the X95.
BUT. Then there is my AKM. I mean it is a really good do it all battle proven toss it in a sand wet swamp and just pick it up and give it a shake and keep going. For those that have never handled a AKM/AK 47 they are much smaller than I think people realize. They are not a big rifle at all. Not a bad bug out rifle at all. And as my friend told me. "If the wrong side wins you will have something that amo will be available for".
In reply to dean1484 :
The smaller the caliber for the same amount of powder, the faster the throat erodes. .243 wears much faster. 6 XC was a shortened .243 (early days) and barrels lasted longer because of the reduced powder capacity. If you have a sand blaster, and make the nozzle smaller, it will wear faster (measures in pounds of sand, nit necessarily time). The smaller diameter does not reject the heat as quickly, either.
.308 will go 4000 rounds (so I hear from friends who shoot competitively) before accuracy is noticeably affected. In a non competitive realm, perhaps 5000 or 6000. 6.5 Creedmoore is likely 3/4 of that, .243 is around 1/3. Numbers from picking the brains of people that have done it, none of my own experience of taking a barrel that far.
Forgot to share. My new to me 1944 M1
brandonsmash said:In reply to jmabarone :
You mean alerted the ATF to what you have?
I did this and complied with the rules for mine. I'm still not sure I did the right thing. Also, just the other day a 7.62x39 10.5" upper followed me home and now I don't know whether I want to do another SBR or just pin and weld a muzzle device on it.
Also, 7.62x39. . . because I needed another caliber in the closet, of COURSE I did.
Exactly, but I didn't, so I don't have to dance around the "well, it isn't really a braced pistol, now SBR" thing. Registering as an SBR would have allowed me to do whatever fun SBR stuff I wanted in the future, so that's what I wish I'd gone for.
In reply to jmabarone :
One drawback with an SBR is that interstate travel requires paperwork and ATF approval.
Rodan said:In reply to jmabarone :
One drawback with an SBR is that interstate travel requires paperwork and ATF approval.
dean1484 said:Forgot to share. My new to me 1944 M1
Very nice!
All this talk of using an AR-15 for self defense makes me want to comment that a 20 gauge pump or semi-auto with buckshot is a much better home defense choice, has more power, isn't as loud, has less flash, way more stopping power, and the projectiles won't travel 10 miles if you miss.
An AR for the Zombie apocalypse is fine but I'm grabbing my 20ga Remington 870 pump, with 18" barrel and extension tube, for home defense issues.
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