161k people on Guam, 60 on Midway.
161k people on Guam, 60 on Midway.
KyAllroad wrote:captdownshift wrote: I hear as punishment they're forcing statehood upon them.PR should become a state. And so we don't have to change our flag or have an uneven number of states it's time to start combining some. We really don't need two Dakotas when the population of each could fit in a middle school gymnasium.
I like this idea. How do we apply it to the cessation of upstate NY? Give NYC to NJ or become a part of PA? Half of the boarder counties are already trying to cessead to PA over fracking.
They will be fine. There is a famous banking quote:
J Paul Getty said: If you owe the bank $100, that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 Million, that's their problem.
The financiers want something back rather than nothing. They will help PR until they get their money back. Same reason the mafia doesn't kill you if you still owe them money.
As someone who sees the flip side of the Puerto Rico coin daily, JO's piece was very, very one sided. It's way too much to type out by myself, but a lot of the counter points of view are laid out in this article:
https://johnmuddlaw.com/2016/04/25/the-road-to-hell-is-paved-with-good-intentions/
I'm not affiliated with whoever writes that site, but it's interesting food for thought. Additionally, not every Hedge Fund or Mutual Fund company is opposed to the HR4900 bill. Everyone wants to get paid back something. Plus, all bonds in Puerto Rico aren't created equal. some are (much) more insolvent/distressed than others. See here:
http://puertorico.municipalbonds.com/bonds/recent/
Bond prices vary from the high teens up to above par (100), so you see all different types of credit quality in PR.
Does something need to be done? Yes. Is a sweeping, economy crushing default going to happen? No.
There's so much going on behind the scenes between creditors and debtors that it's nearly impossible to keep up with the whole thing based on major media alone.
More background:
http://www.bloombergview.com/quicktake/puerto-ricos-slide
Keep in mind, Puerto Rico issued this debt, why shouldn't they be held as accountable as possible for paying it? If they are allowed to default, investors (yes, individual people who have their retirement savings in bonds, not jsut hedge funds...) who hold PR debt could potentially be harmed (depending on the price they bought the bonds at). They loaned money expecting to be paid back, that's an obligation that should at least be attempted to make happen. Two sides to every coin.
Thanks for the alternate view.
The note about US companies fleeing the island seemed a bit strange to me when I heard it. I have very direct knowledge of at least two rather large companies (medical related production) that are very much still there.
Stefan (Not Bruce) wrote: Might as well work on a plan to buy into Cuba once that becomes possible again.
I'm not convinced that buying a small slice of either would be a bad idea if it's cheap enough. Cuba presents a lot more problems than PR, obviously..
aircooled wrote: Thanks for the alternate view. The note about US companies fleeing the island seemed a bit strange to me when I heard it. I have very direct knowledge of at least two rather large companies (medical related production) that are very much still there.
Even with those companies- they are moving their own jobs to the US. Two of my very good friends went from working in Puerto Rico to working in the US, doing the same thing for the same company.
Not cutting jobs, but moving them, and reducing net income of the island.
You are right that the companies are still there.
That being said- there have been some of the companies that were there that are no longer there. There used to be an F plant in Carolina. It left in the late 90's. There used to be a big chemical plant west of Ponce- that closed in the early 90's.
But the thing that really bugs me- ag. Or the lack of it. There is some- some tomatoes, some coffee, some bananas, some plantain, etc. The problem is that over the last 20 years, I've noticed a big decline of locally grown food for imported food. No idea why. If labor is a problem, this is an easy solution. Or even if that isn't a solution, there's the DR that is happy to loan workers. OR mechanize it more like you see in Hawaii and Florida.
Crap- with this big green movement, growing cane and turning it just into fuel should be cheap and easy. But even the rum producers import the molasses.
I don't get it.
In reply to alfadriver:
has past farming depleted the land? I would think it unlikely in a tropical climate, but...
Has there been a push to use land resources for other things, like tourism, leaving less arable land?
Interesting. I know less than I would like about PR.
ultraclyde wrote: In reply to alfadriver: has past farming depleted the land? I would think it unlikely in a tropical climate, but... Has there been a push to use land resources for other things, like tourism, leaving less arable land? Interesting. I know less than I would like about PR.
Not that I can tell. The wild grasses seem quite happy- AND they grew cane for centuries there.
I remember seeing orchards of mangoes (which are 1000x better than the ones we get from Mexico- larger, less fiberous, and smaller seed) and avocados (see mangoes- except I can understand due to the less tough skins, maybe). There are still fields of plantains and bananas, but given the news features of the locally grown ones- I think that dropped off pretty big, too.
Where tourists go, nothing to worry about growing- sand and beaches or the mountains.
There's some suburb creep- but the land is still pretty obviously empty.
Great place to visit. Have 3 more trips planned this year. All of one is vacation... 
alfadriver wrote: But the thing that really bugs me- ag. Or the lack of it. There is some- some tomatoes, some coffee, some bananas, some plantain, etc. The problem is that over the last 20 years, I've noticed a big decline of locally grown food for imported food. No idea why. If labor is a problem, this is an easy solution. Or even if that isn't a solution, there's the DR that is happy to loan workers. OR mechanize it more like you see in Hawaii and Florida. Crap- with this big green movement, growing cane and turning it just into fuel should be cheap and easy. But even the rum producers import the molasses. I don't get it.
I can't speak for PR, but I saw some of this when I lived in the DR.
Locally grown food crops were seen as an inferior product to imported. There was a value placed on imported products which made local crops only useful for sustenance farmers- the US equivalent of "living in the 'hood".
Cane was a challenging crop. Sugar beets put enough of a dent in the world market that the price of cane was dismal. Manual harvesting was grueling work that only Haitians would do, and they basically needed to harvest between 4 and 5 tons per man per day, for which they earned less than most of us make in an hour. Modern slave labor.
Mechanized harvesting meant an investment in equipment that few could do, and the resources for maintaining the equipment, parts, etc. were simply not available. Farm equipment and parts were taxed at a rate that basically meant the selling price was 200% of whatever it sells for in the US, and cane can't afford those kind of prices.
PR is definitely a different scenario, but many of the same Caribbean cultural aspects are still an influence, and the challenges of manual harvesting vs the cost of mechanized in an island culture are still relevant.
In reply to SVreX:
As I have seen, it's not so much an inferiority complex as much as it is shifting of what people buy, based on cost. The produce from the US is generally pretty poor- which makes sense since it has to travel so far. But Puerto Rico had been very proud of it's food in the past- as I saw it. Songs are written about the food.
On the sugar front- mechanizing the crop isn't that hard- there's plenty of money in Puerto Rico, and getting stuff from Florida- shipping is pretty easy (other than what ship it has to come from). For that matter, there are two brand new container shipping cranes in Ponce. And some new roads to support them.
While there isn't much of a market for granulated sugar (beets + Brazil), Bacardi and Carralles- the two largest rum producers in Puerto Rico (and perhaps the world)- import most of their molasses- so there's a pretty natural demand on the island. Besides, with the green movement and the want for cheap ethanol- one just needs to press the cane juice, ferment, distill, and add to gas for E10-E15 (or E85). The engineering knowledge to do that is on the island.
I look at other states as what PR can do- Hawaii and Florida in particular.
GameboyRMH wrote: 161k people on Guam, 60 on Midway.
Not to be pedantic, but I've spent time on both, and although Guam is populated as described (and pretty cool!), Midway has no "population" as such. Just Fish and Wildlife and some college students, and E36 M3loads of Gooney birds that love to berkeley with C-130 engines/props. Nobody is a "citizen" of, nor native to Midway. Most beautiful beach I've been to in the world though.
didn't I once read that for overseas shipping to Puerto Rico.. it has to come to the US first and then to PR due to this one weird law?
alfadriver wrote: I look at other states as what PR could do if it was a state- Hawaii and Florida in particular.
Fixed it for you.
mad_machine wrote: didn't I once read that for overseas shipping to Puerto Rico.. it has to come to the US first and then to PR due to this one weird law?
Not sure about that, but shipping between the US and PR does have the same odd laws of shipping between two US ports- using a US built ship with US crew. Pretty old law.
No, foreign shipping can go into PR just like any other US port. Now, US shipping has to go on US flag ships, per the law, which isn't enforced much anymore, as there are only a few US flag ships left. That law protected US flagged ships from foreign flag ships that would otherwise come in and take cargo from Los Angeles to San Francisco, say.
Whoever holds the PR debt right now should take a loss, in my opinion. They knew the risks were very high. That's why the yield on that debt when issued or bought was very high. You can't get high yield with low risk. Doesn't exist. PR debt, like Argentina debt, had a high yield BECAUSE THEY MIGHT DEFAULT AND YOU WOULDN'T GET YOUR MONEY BACK. Now, other problems exist, like some weird law on PR's books that says that if they default, then the banks get paid their interest before the government workers or anyone else gets paid. That's where it gets interesting.
Oh, and anyone thinking of vacationing down there: NEVER VENTURE OUTSIDE THE TOURIST DISTRICT.
Dr. Hess wrote: Oh, and anyone thinking of vacationing down there: NEVER VENTURE OUTSIDE THE TOURIST DISTRICT.
Lol. There are only a few places I would not go. Lots of other places that are safe. Just like every single major city in the US.
BTDT. Kind of part of how life has played out.
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