Buick vs Toyota help me pick

My Olds did the following; Multiple interior electrical systems failing sporadically, like the automatic headlights you can't defeat clicking on and off randomly at night and the cruise control often being inop. This is probably an ignition switch issue but I never really dug into it. Interior blend-door solenoid dying, so I had no real vent control, and eventually the HVAC control head died. Couple electrical connectors failed for no reason at all, like the driver's power window motor connector.

Eventually the upper intake manifold started to leak coolant externally nearly a decade after I dumped the Dex and replaced with green Prestone. I bought a Dorman "improved design" upper and swapped it over as there's an EGR passage through this plastic intake that likes to burn up. About eight months later the car started to act like the cooling system was seeing compression from a cylinder; would randomly barf coolant on the ground after being shut off but wasn't overheated, sometimes steam in the exhaust if shut off and restarted warm. This was with the much vaunted 3800, although a 1999 and a 2007 is somewhat different.

The Buick will be more pleasant to drive, and should be dead reliable (at least in terms of powertrain) with proper maintenance. I really don't like the way the newer Camrys drive, the laggy (and arguably dangerous) electric throttle and lack of steering feel/loadup, to a point of having to roll forward at a stop to double check where the tires are pointed, really bothers me. Though that was an 03, I think 07 is a different generation, might be better.

In reply to pres589:

I don't think the series 3 had an of the series 2 intake/coolant issues.

I will say this for GM stuff: they will run for a LONG time. The difference between a GM and a Toyota (or any other Japanese brand, with the possible exception of Mitsubishi): at, say, 175K the riceburner will feel nice and solid.

The GM will feel like a bunch of separate parts flying in tight formation, everything is loose. The engines will continue to run and the transmission will still work but both will feel like they were assembled using a yardstick to measure clearances.

During my last stint with GM (mid 00's) the 3800's were solid engines but many had a bit of a problem: the fuel pressure regulator was mounted directly to the plastic intake manifold. After a while they would start leaking, particularly when it was pretty cold outside. Protagonist gets in the car, turns the key, is greeted with a BANG! and sometimes an engine compartment fire, the excess fuel in the intake would explode at startup splitting it wide open. Some had a recall for this but I also saw it happen on cars outside of the recall VIN's. http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchResults?searchType=ID&targetCategory=R&searchCriteria.nhtsa_ids=04V090000

1988RedT2 wrote:

Nick_Comstock wrote:

1988RedT2 wrote:

pres589 wrote: I'd say, test drive both and see which one drives better. I'd personally lean towards the Camry. Oh, and open the radiator cap on the Buick and see if the coolant has turned to acidic mud. Dexcool and junk electrics are my biggest fears with anything GM based on my experiences with my Olds Intrigue.

Haha! It sounds as if you and I have had a very similar GM experience.

Based solely on my own personal experience with GM's I would expect years of trouble free driving only doing routine maintenance and replacing wear items. Based solely on my own personal experience with Toyota's I would expect days of trouble free driving before catastrophic engine failure.

It may be that your experience is something of an anomaly.

Not really. I know of a few people with very poor toyota reliability issues, myself included.

In reply to Bobzilla:

I was actually referring to his statement about trouble-free GM ownership, but I admit my post was vague.

And that as well.... I can't even begin to count the number of happy GM owners I know.... again, myself included.

Bobzilla wrote: And that as well.... I can't even begin to count the number of happy GM owners I know.... again, myself included.

Obviously your unquantifiable experiences are more important than every other piece of data ever produced about these two brands.

One transmission in an 86 truck, one window regulator and a intake manifold gasket on a 99 Grand Prix. I bought my 80 T/A with cracked heads so I knew that one ahead of time.

The rest,

79 T/A

86 T/A

77 T/A

80 Bonnie

86 S10

86 Riviera

89 Century

89 Safari van

77 Monte Carlo

97 Silverado

05 Grand Prix

85 Regal

88 Vandura van

76 Cutlass

01 Tracker

96 Impala SS

have all needed nothing except routine maintenance and wear items while in my ownership.

No experience wit Toyotas, but my wife bought a Buick LeSabre new in 2000. In 2013, 13 years and 200K+ miles late she traded it in just because she wanted a new car.

The only problem we ever had was the plastic gears in the power window mechanisms.

Nick_Comstock wrote: Based solely on my own personal experience with GM's I would expect years of trouble free driving only doing routine maintenance and replacing wear items. Based solely on my own personal experience with Toyota's I would expect days of trouble free driving before catastrophic engine failure.

That's how it played out for me, exactly.

That's a 2006 Lacross my mother has. No where near as nice or comfortable as my '97 Camry. And gas mileage isn't all that good either according to my parents.

Fueled by Caffeine wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: And that as well.... I can't even begin to count the number of happy GM owners I know.... again, myself included.

Obviously your unquantifiable experiences are more important than every other piece of data ever produced about these two brands.

To me ? Abso -berkeleying-lutely. Life's experiences teach us. To ignore what it teaches us only begs for us to make the same mistakes repeatedly.

I've put literally millions of miles on a multitude of toyotas, I haven't run into a thing that made me anything but amazed at their reliability. Only thing better than a toyota is a lexus, because the have better corrosion resistance. IMHO best cars/company in the business hands down.

Voting for the Buick. (sound of closet door opening) I own a 2007 Lucerne CXS, and have grown to love it over the 16 months and 32K miles of ownership so far; I have a 50-mile round-trip commute every day and enjoy the cushy, comfortable seats and the quiet interior. Only electrical issue to date is that the power lumbar adjustment on the passenger seat quit working. I will note that the CXS is a slightly more sporting version with a firmer suspension, V8, and larger wheels/tires, which I found more pleasant to drive than the "lesser" V6 versions; but the V6 should be more than adequate for the use you described and more durable (and if you get it, enjoy that bench seat with your wife .

As an alternative (if one could be found), a Toyota Avalon of the same vintage would give you the Buick's room, quiet and cushiness (sans bench seat ), gas mileage would be in between the Camry and Buick, and would have decent reliability (not to mention it would blow the doors off either one).

rambler68 wrote: Voting for the Buick. (sound of closet door opening) I own a 2007 Lucerne CXS, and have grown to love it over the 16 months and 32K miles of ownership so far; I have a 50-mile round-trip commute every day and enjoy the cushy, comfortable seats and the quiet interior. Only electrical issue to date is that the power lumbar adjustment on the passenger seat quit working. I will note that the CXS is a slightly more sporting version with a firmer suspension, V8, and larger wheels/tires, which I found more pleasant to drive than the "lesser" V6 versions; but the V6 should be more than adequate for the use you described and more durable (and if you get it, enjoy that bench seat with your wife . As an alternative (if one could be found), a Toyota Avalon of the same vintage would give you the Buick's room, quiet and cushiness (sans bench seat ), gas mileage would be in between the Camry and Buick, and would have decent reliability (not to mention it would blow the doors off either one).

Hmm, I recall reading somewhere that certain Avalon models had a bench seat available but not sure which model year that ended with?

Will be going to check out the Lucerne soon and will post my findings fwiw.

Hess, you keep mentioning your 97 Camry. Have you driven a new one? IMO, they've lost a lot.

I vote Buick, but not a strong vote. My grandma's seemed to be a pretty decent car, and I liked the way it drove compared to SWMBO's mother Lexus Camry, as well as my friends 03 Camry.

Haven't driven a newer one. Most recent is a 2000 v6 Camry, which is identical to mine except for the motor and it was optioned out nicer. Mine started life as a rental car. Hertz, if I recall. I bought it with about 30K on it in '98.

Dr. Hess wrote: Haven't driven a newer one. Most recent is a 2000 v6 Camry, which is identical to mine except for the motor and it was optioned out nicer. Mine started life as a rental car. Hertz, if I recall. I bought it with about 30K on it in '98.

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts if you drive a "new" one. To me the newer ones just feel cheaper. Not necessarily any less reliable or safe, but they're not as nice IMHO.

mtn wrote:

Dr. Hess wrote: Haven't driven a newer one. Most recent is a 2000 v6 Camry, which is identical to mine except for the motor and it was optioned out nicer. Mine started life as a rental car. Hertz, if I recall. I bought it with about 30K on it in '98.

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts if you drive a "new" one. To me the newer ones just feel cheaper. Not necessarily any less reliable or safe, but they're not as nice IMHO.

I completely agree. The new camry's don't drive as nice nor feel as nice inside. They are still reliable though.

i say whichever one has a nicer brake pedal cover and isnt in ragged out condition. ;p

'97 Camry: an employee rented one to go to a school in Jax, she came back complaining about the seat being terrible. I was scheduled next and rented a Camry, might have even been the same car. I came back cursing that drivers' seat; I simply could NOT get comfortable in it. Otherwise, a competent appliance that did exactly what it was supposed to.

Buick will be cheaper to maintain. Dad had 200K on his 2002 Lesabre 3800 when he sold it. Valve covers had never been off. Ran fine. Parts were: brakes, struts, water pump, battery, tires, tune-up/fluids.

I hate Camry driver seats too, don't know what it is about them but I can't get comfortable in them either. My vote is for the Buick, easy and cheap to maintain. That 3800 is good for another 125-200K miles easy if looked after. The car will probably fall apart around the drivetrain

I say you can't go wrong with either for a nice ride, but I would lean strongly torward the Camry. Toyotas haven't kept their squeaky-clean reliability like they had a couple decades ago, and Buick has improved from what they were, but they are far from equals.

An 07 Camry will feel like it is epoxied together. Stiffer unibody, better assembly, higher quality interior materials. The materials used to make it will last longer by far. Take a look at the same cars with higher mileage and look at the rotting, torn leather in the Buick and the chrome tape peeling off the dash trim. Around the time GM was getting a little better at interior assembly, they started using really pathetic materials from the absolute lowest bidder.

Both engines will run well. The Buick (in terms of repair) will undoubtedly have more failures. Aside from a potential lower reliability rating of the engine itself, it will likely outlast the car. You will almost certainly have electrical gremlins; power seats that like to move when they want to, radios that have quirks, etc. That list is quite long actually.

Just for the sake of comparison, the Camry was a C&D top ten, and has made Consumer Reports best used cars list every year since. All of Buick Enclave, LaCrosse, Lucerne, and Regal made Consumer Reports "used cars to avoid" list. Granted, those are not definitive lists, but I find it hard to believe that they are equal cars if one has made the "avoid" list every year since 2008 while the other one made "best" every year since 2008.

One of the problems you'll run into is a hundred people who have owned Buicks and never had a single problem ever (except the head gaskets, dexcool gelling, plugged cats, recall on seat belts and ignition switches, recall on airbags, and windshield leaks) But that's IT. Nothing wrong ever.

Then you'll have a hundred Toyota owners who bought an appliance and it never had a single failure (for real) and it also didn't illicit any emotional response so they don't give it a passionate review.

Here is a neat tidbit for you. In 1994, my Uncle was an Engineer for DuPont working with Toyota on the Camry and Corolla. His job was to engineer a part for Camrys and Corollas that fails. His job was to make it less boring by engineering a weak link. Then ended up with valve cover gaskets and something else like a horn relay. Research showed (at least in Toyota's eyes) that a car that never fails loses interest. Psychologically speaking, (according to the wording of the study and relayed to me by my Uncle) caring for your car is like caring for a crying spouse. A cheap fix for something that failed actually increases customer opinion of the car and makes them more aware of how cheap it is to maintain.

Conversely, a Buick is something about which some people are passionate. Because of that, they tend to overlook its quirks.

Therefore, my somewhat objective opinion; if you want a reliable appliance that holds its value and will not hold your interest, get the Camry. If you are passionate about Buicks, get the Buick.