Camper vs. Tiny House vs. Garage Apartment vs. Something else?

My first question is what will you be allowed to have on the property? 

Something permanently attached to the ground is going to be the best investment. Might not be most cost effective right now but the one least likely to be regretted. 
 

shipping container you can make into a decent living space?

In reply to Curtis :

Many thousands of old people would disagree with you about Airstreams.  It may have something to do with towing them all over creation in caravans.  They age better than the average RV.  

BTW I’ve been scoping out Spartan trailers for a few years now.  I just missed a good one because I don’t have a tow pig. 

spitfirebill said:

In reply to Curtis :

Many thousands of old people would disagree with you about Airstreams.  It may have something to do with towing them all over creation in caravans.  They age better than the average RV.  

BTW I’ve been scoping out Spartan trailers for a few years now.  I just missed a good one because I don’t have a tow pig. 

They do age well, and for those who love them and can put up with feeling like they are living in a tube, it's great.  I just don't think 60-something, non-RVers who are into "nicer things" would appreciate it like the die-hards.  They have their application, I just don't think this is it.  They are the LR2 of RVs IMO.  Expensive, not that great, fanatical following.

I looked for YEARS for a good Spartan candidate for a totally mid-century-modern refurb.  I am so smitten with those things.

Curtis said:

BoxheadTim said:

Keith Tanner said:

In your case, I'd be tempted to buy an old Airstream. It'll hold some value, it's easy to move again if that matters, and it's got great style. 

Came here to suggest this also.

I'm going to politely disagree.  As a life-long RVer, Airstreams represent the absolute maximum RV investment for some of the most awkward, uncomfortable, temperature-extreme spaces.  Within 10 minutes of the sun hitting the aluminum skin, you're in an oven that the A/C can't keep up with.  Then when it's chilly, that skin sucks heat out of it like dry ice.  The cabinets look great until you open them and realize the curved skin behind them won't let you store anything larger than a box of Mac n Cheese.  Don't get me wrong, they are well-made trailers, but you'll pay easily 3 times as much for a trailer that scores about a negative 2 on the ergonomics and comfort scale.

They hold their value because of perceived aerodynamics (which they don't really do well anyway) but for a stationary vehicle that holds no allure.  Actually living in one is a royal pain.  Buying an Airstream as a comfy in-law suite is much like buying a Miata as a family car.

If I were going vintage aluminum trailer, I'd go with a Spartan.

 

 

In other words, don't take camper advice from a guy who considers Motel 6 to be primitive camping .

Thanks for your perspective - I have a couple of friends out West who are Airstream fanatics so my view might be a little coloured via their rose tinted glasses..

Thanks for this thread, I may need a cabin to place next to my cabin, there are some great ideas here.

Part of the problem with campers in general - and most of the common solutions - is that they all have a kitchen. In a camper, it takes up wayyy too much space and isn't necessary for us. Which leads us to believing that something "custom" is better. 

Of course, maybe adding a kitchenette would be good for resale, although resale is really not a concern here.

BoxheadTim said:

Curtis said:

BoxheadTim said:

Keith Tanner said:

In your case, I'd be tempted to buy an old Airstream. It'll hold some value, it's easy to move again if that matters, and it's got great style. 

Came here to suggest this also.

I'm going to politely disagree.  As a life-long RVer, Airstreams represent the absolute maximum RV investment for some of the most awkward, uncomfortable, temperature-extreme spaces.  Within 10 minutes of the sun hitting the aluminum skin, you're in an oven that the A/C can't keep up with.  Then when it's chilly, that skin sucks heat out of it like dry ice.  The cabinets look great until you open them and realize the curved skin behind them won't let you store anything larger than a box of Mac n Cheese.  Don't get me wrong, they are well-made trailers, but you'll pay easily 3 times as much for a trailer that scores about a negative 2 on the ergonomics and comfort scale.

They hold their value because of perceived aerodynamics (which they don't really do well anyway) but for a stationary vehicle that holds no allure.  Actually living in one is a royal pain.  Buying an Airstream as a comfy in-law suite is much like buying a Miata as a family car.

If I were going vintage aluminum trailer, I'd go with a Spartan.

 

 

In other words, don't take camper advice from a guy who considers Motel 6 to be primitive camping .

Thanks for your perspective - I have a couple of friends out West who are Airstream fanatics so my view might be a little coloured via their rose tinted glasses..

I come from the other end - any time I don't have to unpack the canoe and carry every single bit of my gear over a rough trail through mosquito-infested woods, I figure I'm glamping. You would not believe the amount of joy I get out of being able to put stuff in a cupboard and just drive the Westfalia to a campground where I will stay dry in the rain and not think about how much my food weighs.

My boss is on his second Airstream. The first suffered from rapid unscheduled disassembly after a towing incident and he didn't hesitate to replace the wreckage with another aluminum tube. He and his wife are in their 60's. So I figured they weren't THAT bad. I guess it depends on how much time it will be occupied. A couple of days a month, an Airstream might remain "cool". Several weeks per month, you'd want a real bed and a real bathroom.

FYI, watch for scope creep on the build if you do a building. A coworker decided to build a garage with an attached studio apartment. He's doing it almost all himself, and it's been over a year. He can park one or two Miatas in the 3.5 car garage now and the apartment will hopefully be suitable for occasional occupation in a few weeks.

Keith Tanner said:

I guess it depends on how much time it will be occupied. A couple of days a month, an Airstream might remain "cool". Several weeks per month, you'd want a real bed and a real bathroom.

I follow a YouTube family (husband, wife and young daughter) that lived in a 30' Airstream full-time for about 3 years, traveling all over the country.  They recently sold it and moved into a larger 5th wheel after having a second child. They were constantly moving and often boon-docked in various sites and the smaller trailer allowed them to get into tighter spots.  Their Airstream was heavily customized, inside and out for how they lived, including a ton of solar on the roof and about 600 amp-hours of Li batteries. The current 5th wheel is actually their 5th RV and their experience has taught them to have no qualms about changing or modifying an RV to suite their needs and tastes. Especially as full-timers where it's not just an RV but their actual home.  Don't like the decor?  Change it.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

You really hit the nail on the head there.  A normal house takes 1500-2000 man hours to construct by professionals.   Just because you’re thinking smaller doesn’t cut the time in half. In fact if you haven’t done this before it doubles and triples that time.  ( (because you don’t have the efficiency of scale.) 

To put that into perspective a full time job is 2080 a year. 

This is an interesting question.  IMO anything you add to the property is not going to increase its value by the amount you spend. 

Can you rent this structure (or all of it) via AirBNB/VRBO when not occupied to get some return on your investment?

Can you just sell the whole thing and buy something with more space?

In reply to ProDarwin : It very much depends on the quality of the “cottage” and the neighborhood.  

The real estate dictum; Location Location Location.  Determines the financial return.  If it’s just one more cheap building/addition/ improvement  there is no return.

 If it’s a attractive addition  in a neighborhood of similar homes.  It will not only return its investment but also drive others to replicate it.  

ProDarwin said:

This is an interesting question.  IMO anything you add to the property is not going to increase its value by the amount you spend. 

 

Can you rent this structure (or all of it) via AirBNB/VRBO when not occupied to get some return on your investment?

Can you just sell the whole thing and buy something with more space?

Could we rent it? Sure. Would we? Nope. 

Sell the whole thing and buy something with more space? Nope. 

This is a funny situation where money is theoretically no object, but it is also the single biggest factor in making the decision. My parents were frugal, saved well, got lucky once or twice in their careers, and could probably be considered wealthy. But they got that way by not spending frivolously. This isn't looked at from an investment of "will I see money back on this", but "is the benefit to our lives worth this cost". 

In other words, they're trying to weigh how much it is worth to get the following: 

• More times that their kids, and eventually grandchildren, will spend visiting them
• A little peace and quiet when it does become a zoo
• More time with ALL the family together

FWIW, this was driven by this past week. My parents had bought this place in 2016, and immediately took it down to the studs for much of it. After the renovation, there have been a few projects that have been lingering, things like reglazing the windows or replacing two of the doors, rebuilding the back deck, rebuilding the walkway into the water, etc. This week they finished the last two projects (still a lot of them, but none that they need to do or have much motivation to do). This week also featured me and my wife, my brother and SIL, my brother and his fiance, and 3 dogs weighing over 80 pounds each (I was actually gone on business for the 2 days my little bro and his fiance were there, but point still stands). One grandchild is up in heaven, but another is on the way and more are eventually expected. This house is 3 bedrooms, 3 baths, with another private office that is used as a bedroom. Seems like a lot of space, but it fills up quick.

Also, for reference, literally 500 yards up the beach is where my Grandparents had their place for 40 years. Their property had two 2-bedroom cottages and a garage apartment. Bigger family, but it allowed everyone to be up at the same time. That is one place where we're getting ideas from. 

Also, whatever we do will not really impact the value of the property one way or another. 

mtn said:

This is a funny situation where money is theoretically no object, but it is also the single biggest factor in making the decision.

Gotcha, this is what I was struggling to wrap my head around.

Keith Tanner said:

BoxheadTim said:

Curtis said:

BoxheadTim said:

Keith Tanner said:

In your case, I'd be tempted to buy an old Airstream. It'll hold some value, it's easy to move again if that matters, and it's got great style. 

Came here to suggest this also.

I'm going to politely disagree.  As a life-long RVer, Airstreams represent the absolute maximum RV investment for some of the most awkward, uncomfortable, temperature-extreme spaces.  Within 10 minutes of the sun hitting the aluminum skin, you're in an oven that the A/C can't keep up with.  Then when it's chilly, that skin sucks heat out of it like dry ice.  The cabinets look great until you open them and realize the curved skin behind them won't let you store anything larger than a box of Mac n Cheese.  Don't get me wrong, they are well-made trailers, but you'll pay easily 3 times as much for a trailer that scores about a negative 2 on the ergonomics and comfort scale.

They hold their value because of perceived aerodynamics (which they don't really do well anyway) but for a stationary vehicle that holds no allure.  Actually living in one is a royal pain.  Buying an Airstream as a comfy in-law suite is much like buying a Miata as a family car.

If I were going vintage aluminum trailer, I'd go with a Spartan.

 

 

In other words, don't take camper advice from a guy who considers Motel 6 to be primitive camping .

Thanks for your perspective - I have a couple of friends out West who are Airstream fanatics so my view might be a little coloured via their rose tinted glasses..

I come from the other end - any time I don't have to unpack the canoe and carry every single bit of my gear over a rough trail through mosquito-infested woods, I figure I'm glamping. You would not believe the amount of joy I get out of being able to put stuff in a cupboard and just drive the Westfalia to a campground where I will stay dry in the rain and not think about how much my food weighs.

 

So true.  I grew up "glamping" in a 10' slide in pickup camper with four people, two dogs, and a cat.  No water heater, a briefcase toilet in the closet, no shower, and a mysterious electrical ground loop that buzzed your hands if you were standing on the ground when you grabbed the doorknob.  Then I lived full time in a 26' TT with a wife, three dogs, and our best friend for a while.  That was my mansion.

So, to me, going camping is a backpack, a hammock, a camera, and a hip flask of rye. 

I had to laugh... one time my (now ex) wife and I did one of those things where you listen to a spiel about timeshares in some exotic place in exchange for a free caribbean cruise.  We just laughed at the fact that the timeshare condos were literally 14 times larger than our travel trailer home.  Most people have a 1500 sf house and when they vacation they get a 500 sf hotel room.  If we had done the timeshare, we would have had a 210 sf house and a 2700 sf hotel room.

ProDarwin said:

mtn said:

This is a funny situation where money is theoretically no object, but it is also the single biggest factor in making the decision.

Gotcha, this is what I was struggling to wrap my head around.

This has been an interesting thing with my wife, and my SIL when either is involved in the discussion. Either one of them will say "why don't they just buy/build/replace [insert thing that would be really nice to have, but is also really expensive]". I'll respond, "well, its expensive". "Well can't they afford it?" "Sigh..."

The idea of "I can afford anything I want, but I can't afford everything I want" is a tough one for a lot of people to grasp. My growing up and being taught personal finance by my dad, I get it without any explanation, but my SIL grew up in an "old money" family, while my wife grew up in a family that spent money without enough thought of the future. She used to make fun of me for how much I analyzed every purchase, complete with the spreadsheets to [attempt to] quantify the value of everything, until she realized how much more comfortable we are than our friends who make the same or more money.

You must start with the question of what legally can you build there, didn't see answer to that question.   

If no restrictions and a permit is easy, a big shed, they sell kits.   The plumbing is always the biggest problem BY FAR,

so if that is a requirement for sewage drain, then the cost of the structure itself is not going to be an issue once you pay for the sewer connection.

Idea not on the list yet...

Buy a pre-fab shed and have it delivered. Any size you want. Then finish the interior yourself. 

There are some really nice ones, and the cost per SF is low. Do some nice gardening around it and you can have a lovely garden cottage worthy of AirBnB rental at a fraction of the cost. 

nimblemotorsports said:

You must start with the question of what legally can you build there, didn't see answer to that question.   

If no restrictions and a permit is easy, a big shed, they sell kits.   The plumbing is always the biggest problem BY FAR,

so if that is a requirement for sewage drain, then the cost of the structure itself is not going to be an issue once you pay for the sewer connection.

 

No zoning concerns. Anything we can put up would be allowed. 

And you're right on the sewage - that may be what is the downfall for this thought experiment. 

SVreX said:

Idea not on the list yet...

Buy a pre-fab shed and have it delivered. Any size you want. Then finish the interior yourself. 

There are some really nice ones, and the cost per SF is low. Do some nice gardening around it and you can have a lovely garden cottage worthy of AirBnB rental at a fraction of the cost. 

Been waiting for your input! 

Is it possible to use one of these as an add-on to an existing structure? Assume that we'd put a slab underneath it. 

If you want to see some cool container to living space conversions check out big house tiny living on the Tube of you.

mtn said:

SVreX said:

Idea not on the list yet...

Buy a pre-fab shed and have it delivered. Any size you want. Then finish the interior yourself. 

There are some really nice ones, and the cost per SF is low. Do some nice gardening around it and you can have a lovely garden cottage worthy of AirBnB rental at a fraction of the cost. 

 

Been waiting for your input! 

Is it possible to use one of these as an add-on to an existing structure? Assume that we'd put a slab underneath it. 

You can, but you might negate some of the value.   The roof overhangs and flashings could be tricky to make work right. 

But you could set it 4’ away from the building, then stick-build a little “hallway” connector. That wouldn’t be hard. 

In reply to mtn :

Sewage may not be a big deal if you plan for a small sewage ejector pump. They are a few hundred dollars. 

Set the pump tank lower than your floor. Plan it so the pump can easily pump up to a house plumbing drain (for example, a cleanout)