Did we already talk about this? I may have missed it since I was traveling in Europe around the time this was published:
Stellantis stops shipping ICE to CARB states for inventory
Impact of CARB on dealer inventory
It explains the plethora of 4xe wranglers in dealer inventory in Massachusetts.
LOL. Enjoy! 
I'm not going to say whether this is good or bad policy.. but policy is there to influence behavior...
this is normal.
complaining about policy is also normal.
In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :
The interesting part is that it influences buying behavior, not necessarily usage. I wonder how many of those 4xe wranglers ever get plugged in?
I considered one before committing to fixing my grand Cherokee, but that was due to other reasons besides policy for inventory distribution. I want to eventually get a wrangler, have a 20 mile commute, free charging at work (not enough range to make it on full electric, but close for one way), and the incentives (I know, policy) being offered brought it close to a more basic wrangler.
In reply to No Time :
I got a buddy who has a masters degree in public policy. I'm not super well versed, but there is a science to moving the needle you want to move and avoiding unintended consequences.
In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :
Hmmm. Not many policy makers seem very good at avoiding that last part.
They probably stopped sending them to California because the dealer lots are LOADED with inventory. High interest rates and crappy mpg probably has more to with it than CARB.
They'll just sell them all to rental companies instead...
I had been working on the rules that went with the ev mandate for a few years before I retired. Sorry to say this isn't new news.
In reply to No Time :
Even if you don't plug it in, it's still a hybrid that should work well off-road and will be effective around town.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Good point, the use case will play a role, but the epa ratings for the 4xe when used as a Hybrid without plugging in are surprisingly worse than the 2.0 turbo with the 8 speed auto.
In reply to No Time :
That is surprising. I wonder if it's a better power adder than economy implementation. An electric motor assist would seem to be really useful in rock crawling, for example. The fact that it's the same ICE would imply that this was the goal more than efficiency.
I don't know the EPA test procedure for a plug-in hybrid. Do they flatline the battery in all-electric mode and then just drive on gas?Does it have much chance to regen? The EPA site seems to imply that's how they're tested.
Those 4Xe's are so close to being perfect, on paper. If only they could tow 6k.
Bmw has/had an X5 plug in hybrid that can tow 5,942. That would be a pretty damn nice compromise as a DD - most people would not use gas during a normal week, but you could still jump in and drive across the country filling up with gasoline. And it could tow enough for my needs.
EDIT: Changed the X5 tow rating, per Karacticus' comment.
In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :
I'm not going to say whether this is good or bad policy.. but policy is there to influence behavior...
this is normal.
complaining about policy is also normal.
Except this policy is not about influencing behavior. It's about juggling numbers to satisfy CARB. From the article...
This decision by Stellantis is likely a result of the company not being a member of the agreement reached between CARB and five other automakers in 2020. Under this agreement, CARB considers the average emissions of the nationwide fleet of these automakers when assessing compliance with its rules. Since Stellantis did not join the agreement initially, its emissions are only measured based on the vehicles it sells in states adopting the CARB emissions standards.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Not only that but hybrids also run the whole 4 bag test, when gas cars ran just 3 and doubled the bag 2 results.
Wife has a 4xe. We have had it for about a year.
If there was an all-electric Wrangler with a genuine 300-400 mile range on battery, we would replace it in a heartbeat with a full EV vehicle.
In reply to 93gsxturbo :
300-400 mile range in a Wrangler is going to require a big, big, expensive, big battery. That's 19-25 gallons of gasoline at 16 mpg, and there's the equivalent of 37 KWh in each gallon. That's 703-925 KWh. But an EV is a lot more efficient at turning stored energy into actual movement. If we assume 100% efficiency for the EV (generous) and 30% efficiency for the ICE (not so generous), that means you want a battery that's between 210-278 KWh. Basically, the size of the monster pack in the Hummer, the largest passenger car EV battery pack in production. That battery pack weighs 2800 lbs and I hate to think what it costs.
But do you really want to spend 300-400 miles in a Wrangler nonstop? ;)
Keith Tanner said:In reply to 93gsxturbo :
300-400 mile range in a Wrangler is going to require a big, big, expensive, big battery. That's 19-25 gallons of gasoline at 16 mpg, and there's the equivalent of 37 KWh in each gallon. That's 703-925 KWh. But an EV is a lot more efficient at turning stored energy into actual movement. If we assume 100% efficiency for the EV (generous) and 30% efficiency for the ICE (not so generous), that means you want a battery that's between 210-278 KWh. Basically, the size of the monster pack in the Hummer, the largest passenger car EV battery pack in production. That battery pack weighs 2800 lbs and I hate to think what it costs.
But do you really want to spend 300-400 miles in a Wrangler nonstop? ;)
And there is the rub. We took our sweet little Wrangler (top off, doors off, in proper Jeep fashion) from Milwaukee to Savanna, IL for Labor Day weekend. - 161 miles each way according to the googles. Then we toured around a few wineries and breweries, did some back roads driving, the whole thing. Probably around 400 miles all-in
My friends' house has very limited power options. Even their 120 wasnt good enough to charge our Jeep - didnt have enough amps at his old farmhouse. The EV charger in Elizabeth, IL was broken. Ran into a guy with a new Mach E who had 45 miles of range left and was crapping his pants. "Aim for Galena and pray" was my advice to him.
So until battery tech improves, those of us in the flyover states are sort of SOL on EVs without at least another car to take on road trips.
There is always the option to stop in Rockford, but I dont really want to spend an hour each way to top up my EV when the equivalent gas station stop takes 5 minutes.
You might spend an hour (actually, less, but that's a different thing) during a trip, but you save all those "5 minute" gas station stops the rest of the time. It's a tradeoff. Stopping to charge - and do nothing else - becomes the exception rather than the rule like it is with gas. Carrying a ton and a half of battery (or a whole secondary drivetrain) just to avoid a mid-trip stop when you're overnighting at a place that can't run an electric range is not a great solution.
You went to wineries and breweries. Did you check to see if any of them offered Level 2 charging? You were stopped anyhow. The electrical grid is pretty well established by this point, it's a lot easier to scatter charging spots around than build gas infrastructure. I agree that broken chargers are a problem - everyone has recognized that, so hopefully that will be a higher priority. It's easier to build out and maintain the charging infrastructure than to equip every low efficiency car with enough battery to be able to cover 400 miles non-stop or to come up with a magic battery that is almost weightless and can be recharged instantly.
I'm not saying that electric is the only solution for everything, just pointing out that you do have to think a little differently and work with the attributes of the different power instead of trying to map your accustomed habits to it. And if you do, some of those obstacles don't turn out to be such obstacles. A 400 mile Wrangler is a pretty unlikely beast and will never be inexpensive or light or small. But a vehicle that can do the trip you described? That's possible if you accept how they work.
mtn said:Those 4Xe's are so close to being perfect, on paper. If only they could tow 6k.
Bmw has/had an X5 plug in hybrid that could tow 6,500. That would be a pretty damn nice compromise as a DD - most people would not use gas during a normal week, but you could still jump in and drive across the country filling up with gasoline. And it could tow enough for my needs.
I own an X5 45e. It and the newer 50e both have a max tow capacity of 5942 lbs, down from the non-hybrid model's figure of "up to 7200 lbs."
In either case, a maximum tongue weight of 550 lbs applies, which I've found to be more constraining.
Keith Tanner said:You might spend an hour (actually, less, but that's a different thing) during a trip, but you save all those "5 minute" gas station stops the rest of the time. It's a tradeoff. Stopping to charge - and do nothing else - becomes the exception rather than the rule like it is with gas. Carrying a ton and a half of battery (or a whole secondary drivetrain) just to avoid a mid-trip stop when you're overnighting at a place that can't run an electric range is not a great solution.
You went to wineries and breweries. Did you check to see if any of them offered Level 2 charging? You were stopped anyhow. The electrical grid is pretty well established by this point, it's a lot easier to scatter charging spots around than build gas infrastructure. I agree that broken chargers are a problem - everyone has recognized that, so hopefully that will be a higher priority. It's easier to build out and maintain the charging infrastructure than to equip every low efficiency car with enough battery to be able to cover 400 miles non-stop or to come up with a magic battery that is almost weightless and can be recharged instantly.
I'm not saying that electric is the only solution for everything, just pointing out that you do have to think a little differently and work with the attributes of the different power instead of trying to map your accustomed habits to it. And if you do, some of those obstacles don't turn out to be such obstacles. A 400 mile Wrangler is a pretty unlikely beast and will never be inexpensive or light or small. But a vehicle that can do the trip you described? That's possible if you accept how they work.
Believe it or not, Keith, there are houses that don't have 50 amps of 220 on a readily available outdoors outlet. I know.. shocking. How do these people live?!?
We did check all the wineries and breweries. The only charger that was within reasonable walking distance to any of our stops was broken, as previously stated. Even if I left my house at a full charge, and even if we ASSume there is one of the super-rare-in-the-midwest 350 kw/hour DC fast chargers that is both working AND available on my route (there isn't) I would still have to sit in Freeport (again, pretending they have a DC fast charger, which they don't) for 30-ish minutes to get enough juice to get BACK to Freeport, just to sit there again on the way home, when I am hung over, tired, and want to see my kitties.
Other options would have been to coast into Savanna on fumes (electrons?) and spend half a day there charging up my EV, again, assuming the charge station was both available and working. Or go to Galena and do the same thing.
And its not just a Midwest issue either. I have had a few sweet EV rentals (including a Polestar 1 in San Diego) and even in the San Diegoest areas of San Diego, finding a working and available EV charger was a real trick. The biggest bitch I have is that there is no good clearing house for EV charging locations. There are 3 or 4 guys all trying to make their mark (chargepoint, plugshare, plus google, and a few others) and they all have different results. Its a mess.
So the solution to your complaints is to fix the charging network, not build a crazy vehicle with far more capacity than makes sense. There are fast chargers in Debuque, Gainsville and Lake Geneva. By the time a full electric Wrangler becomes available, they'll be open to use by non-Teslas. And if that full electric Wrangler has a 200 mile range, you can make that 300 mile trip with one stop. It can even be on the way, as long as you're 100 miles into the trip.
But again, you're looking at a single use case and trying to make your vehicle match that, without considering the other use cases. Is a 30-45 minute charging stop in the middle of a road trip so important that you overlook the lack of gas station stops for all the rest of the time you use the vehicle? You mentioned already that it's annoying to have to fill your Wrangler up with gas all the time, imagine if that went away completely and was replaced with a half hour stop to rest your hung over, tired brain on a road trip. Our brains aren't good at considering that sort of thing.
You don't need to have an outdoor 220V outlet available to charge at someone's house. You need one that's near a window :) I do understand that charging at a friend's house is certainly limiting. Especially since if you have a very inefficient vehicle then it's hard to get any meaningful charge out of a 15A 110V outlet - on a car-shaped EV, you can get 3 miles of charge per hour from that so you'd pick up 30 miles on an overnight visit. On your Wrangler, it's more likely to be half that (without running numbers).
The number of broken charging stations is a known problem and one that has become high profile. It'll get sorted out.
I'm not trying to convince you to abandon gas and go pure electric. I'm just saying that "requiring" extreme range and hand-waving away all of the downsides of that is the wrong approach. By the time Stellantis comes up with a pure electric Wrangler, that charging network is going to look different.
"Hey pal, my Jeep is low on electrons. Can I move your stove for half a day to charge it?"
"Oh, its a gas stove."
"Guess I will start walking."
It may be a single use case, but its *my* typical use case for *my* Wrangler. When you are trying to beat all the other Jabronis and get first beer in the pool, you dont want to be waiting for 45 minutes while your e-Jeep charges up. And picking up 30 miles overnight would get me back to Elizabeth, home of the broken charging station. Even being there for a long weekend would maybe get me most of the way home with a 200 mile range and a 160 mile trip. And heaven help us if we want to take a side quest.
I am a huge proponent of the idea of EVs and PHEVs, Unless something significantly changes by the time our little Ginger is out of warranty, our next vehicle will be ICE powered.
My understanding is a non-hybrid model can be ordered in these states, the manufactures just won't stock them there. Since the vast majority of people buy off the lot its a great way to force more hybrid sales.
In reply to Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) :
And of course hybrids are more expensive. But it works out because everyone knows everyone in CA is rich because people get paid more here(!)
California has the highest poverty level of all states in the US, according to US Census Bureau data
In reply to 93gsxturbo :
I was thinking this was an occasional trip, not a frequent one. If it's frequent, then yes. The potential hassles of this trip could outweigh any potential benefits you might see in other use. If you only make the trip 1-2 times a year, maybe not. My wife, for example, is very happy with the tradeoff of taking breaks on road trips if she never has to pump gas again.
Plugging into a basic 110V socket might get you 30 ADDITIONAL miles overnight. In none of the proposed trips do you come rocking into Elizabeth on fumes. It's 150 miles. A 200 mile Jeep would have 50 miles of range left. In the morning, it would magically have 80. That opens up the possibilities and does not prevent you from being first in the pool when you get there. It also means your charging stop on the way home will be shorter.
Eventually, the electric charging network will look like the gasoline filling network, where you will probably (but not definitely) have a fill station where you need it. Unless you're on I70 between Salida and Green River, which has 100+ miles with no services and will probably still have 100+ miles with no services :) The situation we're in right now, coming up with impossible trips and implausible requirements to force ICE requirements on EVs, will become history. Probably by the time Stellantis comes up with a battery electric Wrangler.
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