Cars that killed Detroit....

Dear Detroit Senior Management,

From the desk of Americas buying public- World class talent, world class companies, and the work of innumerable people has been squandered by unwillingness to acknowledge change and be world class in the new reality. It didn't need to be this way.

Thanks,

The people who have the money you want

P.S. Please listen to us a little more, and we may start trading you our money for your goods again

As a former owner of a 1st gen. G20, I pretty much agree with the above statement.

One thing I can't understand tho, ALL 3 of the Detroit "BIG 3" own or owned car companies in Europe. Those, once owned by Chrysler no longer exist/were "absorbed" by other companies, yet Ford and GM of Europe are doing much better (relatively?) than their "parent" companies....doesn't this EVER occur to Detroit?

Owning or partnering with an overseas car company is not always a route to success. Witness the Opel based Cadillac Catera. OTOH, Saturn appears to be doing much better with Opel platforms.

It works the other way as well; look at the butt whoopin' DaimlerBenz took in order to unload Chrysler on Ceberus. Truth to tell, I never understood that whole DCX matchup in the first place.

Ever driven a base model 1993 Civic hatch? The one I used to have didn't come with a radio or a passenger mirror. Steel wheels. It was the cheapest in the range.

But mechanically, it was a great little car. Such a sweet little engine. It amazed me - this was the engine Honda put in the cheapest little tin box they sold. The car had been stripped to the bone to keep the price down, but there was no skimping on the engineering. And that kinda summed everything up for me.

The problem with that, Keith, is that the buying public will no longer tolerate a stripper car no matter how well engineered, whereas 95% of us here on this board wish there were more to choose from. That '93 Civic, great autox weapon though it be, would sell like cold oatmeal to the general public.

Pintos, on the other hand, are awesome. H4t3rz.

Isn't that the truth. The average person looks down their nose at stripper cars like they do stripper women.

I have a customer who bought a Patriot, 4 banger 6 speed crank up windows. Should be stone reliable and get good gas mileage. It was sitting in the drive waiting for a tech to come get it and a few folks wandered byand looked it over. The comments were universally along the lines of 'damn, he is a cheapskate.'

I respect/love both, for many of the same reasons.

Doesn't help that magazine reviewers (both print and online) tend to put down base level vehicles, as well.

Here's an example:

"When you see a new car advertised as “one at this price,” it’s generally not a bad guess that there’s a reason it’s so cheap.

The Chevrolet Aveo5 driven for this week’s review takes that to the extreme.

It has crank windows and manual locks and mirrors. It has a stickshift instead of an automatic. It has no cruise control. It has no CD player. It has no air conditioning. It’s a car designed to be advertised, not to be bought.

It’s yours for $7,995."

Chris_V wrote: It has crank windows and manual locks and mirrors. It has a stickshift instead of an automatic. It has no cruise control. It has no CD player. It has no air conditioning. ...$7995

I would punch a nun for a FR/RR with that build list, price tag, and factory warranty

I think a modern version of the 2002 or E21 would be awesome. Dirt simple, economy minded but the ability to be really fun. Oh and its rear wheel drive and has a manual gear box. Think of a ford focus with rear wheel drive, manual trans and the same duratec 4 cylinder engine. That's the 5 year old car I'd be looking for.

Duke wrote: The problem with that, Keith, is that the buying public will no longer tolerate a stripper car no matter how well engineered, whereas 95% of us here on this board wish there were more to choose from. That '93 Civic, great autox weapon though it be, would sell like cold oatmeal to the general public.

Agreed. As much fun as my swift is, I don't think I could livewith it as a DD for the wife and I. It's fun to tear it up in, but it's not going to sell to the masses/sheeple. Unless, that is, we can get some celeb to step up and tell them that's wha tthey need....

For some reason, this Editorial seems to point to an issue we're all facing.

Personally, I would not want a DD that didn't have air conditioning, power locks, power mirrors, and a stereo. I can do without power windows because it has been my experience that they will invariably fail or develop irritating quirks. I also expect ABS and airbags.

I used to scoff at crap like heated seats, until I got a car that had them. I wouldn't shell out the extra cash for them as an option, but I get it. I totally understand why people like their luxuries even when folks like us enjoy stripper models.

Heck, look at the business model of Hyundai. They're making huge advances into the market by loading up all of their cars with every luxury feature there is. They're saving on production by having fewer variations, and selling more cars because people get more of the things they want for less price.

People would rather have an extra luxury they don't need than lack a feature they want. The easiest way to do that is to give everyone everything.

Quitcherbitchin. We're all reasonably industrious folks who can figure out how to remove extra weight/features that we don't want when we buy cars that some other sap took the depreciation hit on.

It's funny, you...or at least I, think I can do without a feature, until I own a car with it. Case in point, power windows, which on my 17 year old car with 206K are still functioning as new. I would like to have ABS, yet the 4 wheel disks on my car have stopped it well...except in snow, tho that is due to the cheap "summer" tires it has on it.

The minimum I could live with in a DD? If it wasn't for my delivery job, NO power windows. My car DOES NOT have remote lock/unlock, so power locks are kind of pointless. Heated seats, tho that's because I live WAAY south of the Mason-Dixon line. If my car didn't weigh close to 2800 lbs, NO power steering.

So, absolute musts? Cruise and power windows, with ABS something I'd like to have, but don't have to have.

Jensenman wrote: The average person looks down their nose at stripper cars like they do stripper women.

The average person could can have a better time than they think berkeleying around with either.

My point was not that there was a stripper model of my Civic available. My point was about the quality of engineering went into even this lowliest of models. The car felt like it had been built up to a standard, not down to a price. There's a lesson for Detroit there, as it was a dramatic contrast to the innumerable rental cars I'd been in. In fact, I suspect the willingness to build crap for fleet sales to rental car companies did a huge amount of damage to the domestic's reputation.

I've only ever bought one new car - a 1999.5 Mk4 Golf. I got it with AC because, despite the theoretical availability of the car without it, they did not exist otherwise. No other options although a factory CD changer got bunged in a few months later, as did a couple of suspension upgrades and some good wheels and rubber. I specifically went for manual windows. And those of you who are familiar with the power window regulators on Mk4 Golfs will understand that this proved to be a very wise decision as time went on But that's me, I understand that my philosophy of buying as much car for my money instead of accessories is unusual. And I'm okay with that.

The only "must have" I'd put on the DD list would be ABS and good tires appropriate to the weather. I'll take that over a dozen exploderating bags, because I find it easiest to survive the accidents I'm not in.

My car is 30 years old and gets between 30-40 MPG. shouldn't we be getting more by now?

I'm actually a big fan of strippers... I mean stripped cars. The only options I prefer to have are power windows and A/C. I don't even need a CD player because 90% of my music comes from either FM radio or my iPod.

I currently have an F150 with rubber floors, manual everything, a tape deck, and A/C. It actually has cruise control and I never use it. I want it to have power windows, but only because the window crank is in a very inconvenient place, and I want it to have power locks simply because having an alarm is beneficial in my area. Pressing a button to lock and arm would be nice. Otherwise I like the vinyl seats and rubber floors. When it gets dirty I just hose it out.

My wife on the other hand has a 99 Mercedes with every imaginable option. I'm learning more about it every day. Did you know that they have a sun sensor for the A/C? When it senses direct sunlight it adjusts the climate control accordingly. It even senses which side of the car its shining on and adjusts the affected side. It also has 43 sensors in the A/C which are accessible from a menu in the climate control display. I don't even need an A/C manifold/gauge set to recharge the A/C.

It even has a refrigerated center console cavity and rain-sensing wipers. Jeez.

Keith wrote: But that's me, I understand that my philosophy of buying as much car for my money instead of accessories is unusual. And I'm okay with that.

That's why I bought my 02 Elantra. Yes, the suspension left much to be desired, but the car was(is after 105k hard miles) solid, stable, strong and well built. I paid $12.5k for the car new in 2002, compared to the EX civic for $17k and the cavalier for $14k. $500 later in suspension changes and the car is a perfect DD/part time auto-x'er/mid-distance cruiser.

"Stripper" cars don't have to be under built, or lacking in quality. They just don't have to carry a marque's price tag of papularity, or the stupid accessories that are not needed. My car came (by my choice) without ABS/TCS and the other stupid accessories I don't need or won't use.

curtis73 wrote: My wife on the other hand has a 99 Mercedes with every imaginable option. I'm learning more about it every day. Did you know that they have a sun sensor for the A/C? When it senses direct sunlight it adjusts the climate control accordingly. It even senses which side of the car its shining on and adjusts the affected side. It also has 43 sensors in the A/C which are accessible from a menu in the climate control display. I don't even need an A/C manifold/gauge set to recharge the A/C. It even has a refrigerated center console cavity and rain-sensing wipers. Jeez.

Given that the car in point here is German, and actually built there (sorry Vdub guys) there is a good chance all that stuff will work well for years to come because some engineer spent 91/2 months on the bezel for the ac button, and onother guy spent that time engineering the connector for it etc etc. But I think some of that over intricate nanny BS is a mess Id rather not fool with. My 99 infiniti doesnt really have any adjustable HVAC controls compared to what Im used to. I tell it what temp I want it to be, and it does it. Thats fine ...I guess...while it works, but Id have to be a certified madman to want to deal with the spaghetti bowl that comes out of the back of that thing. I cant tell it when I want AC or heat, it decides what that switchover point is. Even my analog thermostat at home lets me decide when I want heat and when I want air. On my dash, gimme 2 knobs: fan speed and temp, and a slider that lets me choose where that air will come out. Thats all I need. All the electrical lux stuff become a diagnosis/repair nightmare once the odo gets over the hill...

Keith wrote: My point was not that there was a stripper model of my Civic available. My point was about the quality of engineering went into even this lowliest of models. The car felt like it had been built up to a standard, not down to a price.

Oh, I understood, and I agree wholeheartedly. I always look for the best performing, most well-engineered, but SIMPLEST devices and tools I can find. I'd much rather pay the same price for something that is easy to operate, does a great job at its basic task, and will run forever than I would have the latest option list and automated convenience.

I'm just saying that, 15 years later, even Honda couldn't sell that little '93 Civic anymore, at least not in the States. Nobody would buy it. And with price point always being critical, it's the hidden, simple engineering that loses out to the visible, complex features.

My DD is a modest semi-luxury sports sedan that is nonetheless the fanciest car I've ever owned or am likely to own. I have to admit I have gotten used to some of the luxuries and would not be willing to give them up when I replace it. Heated seats let me drive with the sunroof open in February, and I love them.

Which, of course, makes it heavier and more complex... which is why if I ever get truly serious about track days, etc. I will unhesitatingly add a dedicated vehicle to the fleet rather than continuing to compromise.

Automatic climate control in my Speed3 has me spoiled. It's kind of nice. I wouldn't have bought it as a "check the box" kind of thing but it was included. Now that I have it I do like it. Don't know that I'd seek it out in the next car.

I tend to buy engines rather than cars. The 95 Z28 I had was purchased strictly for the 6 speed and LT1. My Speed3 was purchased for that gem of a motor. I bought an 88 Scirocco 16V for the most powerful 4 cylinder VW made.