CFL's...

Javelin wrote: For you math guys, prices at the store for the same line of GE bulbs just this morning, all around 1100 lumens: Pack of 12 Incandescent: $4.00 ($0.33/bulb) Pack of 4 Halogen: $6.87 ($1.72/bulb) Pack of 2 CFL's: $7.87 ($3.94/bulb) No sales, no gimmicks, no cross-branding, no value lines. These were all the same GE bulbs in the same brand and packaging on the same shelf space. So how does that math work again? I know there's super-cheap CFL's out there (I have a bin full of burnt-out ones) and free ones the gubbermint gave away (same bin), but for the same brand/reliability/warranty ratings? Unfortunately the LED's were double-digits *each*

Up front cost is only part of it.

You have to consider life span and electricity usage.

JG Pasterjak wrote: I thought this thread was going to be about the Argos winning the Grey Cup. jg

I was going to post something like this on this thread a couple of times... I am glad someone did...

Javelin wrote: You drop-light guys really need to try one of these LED ones: It'll change your life!

Threadjack! At Snap-On prices I guess it would... Back to the thread...

Javelin wrote: For you math guys, prices at the store for the same line of GE bulbs just this morning, all around 1100 lumens: Pack of 12 Incandescent: $4.00 ($0.33/bulb) Pack of 4 Halogen: $6.87 ($1.72/bulb) Pack of 2 CFL's: $7.87 ($3.94/bulb) No sales, no gimmicks, no cross-branding, no value lines. These were all the same GE bulbs in the same brand and packaging on the same shelf space. So how does that math work again? I know there's super-cheap CFL's out there (I have a bin full of burnt-out ones) and free ones the gubbermint gave away (same bin), but for the same brand/reliability/warranty ratings? Unfortunately the LED's were double-digits *each*

It's really easy to do the math. Bulb life depends on the bulb but the bulbs we use have these ratings:

Incandescent: 750 hours
CFL: 10,000 hours

To simplify things just compare them by figuring out the cost per given period of time. I usually just make it - cost per 10,000 hours, that way I just have to do the math once, for the incandescent bulb:

Incandescent: $0.33/750*10,000=$4.40 per 10,000 hours
CFL: $3.94 per 10,000 hours

For power cost, you really need to know the kWh rate that you pay. But national average is $.12/kWh. You didn't list how much power the CFL uses, but the 100w incandescent equivalent CFL's are usually 23watts nowadays. Again, you have to compare them over some sort of time period, and I usually just compare them over the life of the CFL, so 10,000 hours of lighting. That would be a few years for the average bulb. So you do the math like this:

Incandescent: 100 watts x 10,000 hours / 1,000 watts/kWh x $0.12/kWh = $120 for 10,000 hours of light
CFL: 23 watts x 10,000 hours / 1,000 watts/kWh x $0.12/kWh = $27.60 for 10,000 hours of light

So total cost over a 10,000 hour span of a given light being on:

Incandescent: $4.40 bulb cost, $120 power cost = $124.40
CFL: $3.94 bulb cost, $27.60 power cost = $31.54

In reply to dculberson:

Nailed it. Science.

Warren van Nus wrote: In reply to dculberson: Nailed it. Science.

If you buy the 10khr part, which has not been the norm in my house.

tuna55 wrote: If you buy the 10khr part, which has not been the norm in my house.

I'll go all the way down to your lowest common denominator then... assume they both only last 750 hours (which has not been my experience in the least).

CFL @ 3.94/bulb + ( 23 watts x 750 hours / 1,000watts/kWh x $0.12/kWh ) = $2.07 (electric cost) Total: $6.01

Incandescent @ 0.33/bulb + ( 100 watts x 750 hours / 1,000watts/kWh x $0.12/kWh ) = $9 (electric cost) Total: $9.33

The breakeven is less than the average life of a cheapy Incandescent.

xflowgolf wrote:

tuna55 wrote: If you buy the 10khr part, which has not been the norm in my house.

I'll go all the way down to your lowest common denominator then... assume they both only last 750 hours (which has not been my experience in the least). CFL @ 3.94/bulb + ( 23 watts x 750 hours / 1,000watts/kWh x $0.12/kWh ) = $2.07 (electric cost) Total: $6.01 Incandescent @ 0.33/bulb + ( 100 watts x 750 hours / 1,000watts/kWh x $0.12/kWh ) = $9 (electric cost) Total: $9.33 The breakeven is less than the average life of a cheapy Incandescent.

Well OK then, I guess I stand corrected. Thanks.

tuna55 wrote:

Warren van Nus wrote: In reply to dculberson: Nailed it. Science.

If you buy the 10khr part, which has not been the norm in my house.

I can believe it, for sure, but you have to start somewhere. As xflowgolf said, the break even point is obviously way, way before 10,000 hours, I thought that would be clear since the cost savings were so much. Also keep in mind that's per bulb, so if you are replacing 10 bulbs you can multiply those savings out.

In my office, I get around 4 to 5 years out of my CFL bulbs before they get too dim for me to accept. Those bulbs are on 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, ~48 or so weeks out of the year. That's 7,680 to 9,600 hours. Those are ideal conditions for these bulbs - long on-times with very few short cycles, so in a house you will definitely see shorter life spans. But you'll still save money.

I'm not a CFL bulb evangelist, I promise. I just think they're a source of the typical "I don't like this one thing so I hate them all" type reactions that people have to new stuff. They're frikkin' light bulbs, easy to understand and awesome in the right application, yet for some reason they've become a political touch point for weirdos. (Witness 1988's rants - why would a light bulb matter so much to him??)

z31maniac wrote:

Javelin wrote: For you math guys, prices at the store for the same line of GE bulbs just this morning, all around 1100 lumens: Pack of 12 Incandescent: $4.00 ($0.33/bulb) Pack of 4 Halogen: $6.87 ($1.72/bulb) Pack of 2 CFL's: $7.87 ($3.94/bulb) No sales, no gimmicks, no cross-branding, no value lines. These were all the same GE bulbs in the same brand and packaging on the same shelf space. So how does that math work again? I know there's super-cheap CFL's out there (I have a bin full of burnt-out ones) and free ones the gubbermint gave away (same bin), but for the same brand/reliability/warranty ratings? Unfortunately the LED's were double-digits *each*

Up front cost is only part of it. You have to consider life span and electricity usage.

I have been slowly upgrading from CFLs to LEDs.. now have the LEDs in the Kitchen (two lights) outside (1 light) and bathroom (4 lights)

LEDs ROCK outdoors.. the cooler the weather, the brighter an LED is.

In reply to dculberson:

Good math, but you make some assumptions that skew the figures. First, my local PUD is $0.0537 per kwh according to my statement. Second, the wattage for the bulb prices I gave are 75W for the incandescent and 19W for the CFL, according to their boxes (remember, these are also all advertised at the same lumens, between 1100-1150, and most CFL's don't advertise that as they don't get close). I tried to find hours of life on the boxes, but GE rates by years (odd). The incandescents are 1.5 year and the CFL are 10 year. GE does sell some "0.7 year" incans, but they are a different model line (and even cheaper). Additionally, there are longer-lasting CFL's, but again, a different model line (and more $$). Trying to stay like-for-like here as much as possible so the only variables are light bulb type and price.

I need to at least take a picture of the LED box so I can math that one out as well. I'm sure it's worth it since the thing will never burn out, but damn that's a lot of dough per bulb.

xflowgolf wrote:

tuna55 wrote: If you buy the 10khr part, which has not been the norm in my house.

I'll go all the way down to your lowest common denominator then... assume they both only last 750 hours (which has not been my experience in the least). CFL @ 3.94/bulb + ( 23 watts x 750 hours / 1,000watts/kWh x $0.0537/kWh ) = $0.93 (electric cost) Total: $4.87 Incandescent @ 0.33/bulb + ( 100 watts x 750 hours / 1,000watts/kWh x $0.0537/kWh ) = $4.03 (electric cost) Total: $4.36

As my CFL failure rate is on-par with tuna's (and my incans), here's the figures with what my electricity actually charges.

CFL's are costing me ~$0.50 per bulb to run.

In reply to dculberson:

I don't think there's any political or weirdness involved with CFL issues for most people that actually try them. My rants are that they are not working as advertised. I converted every light in my house three years ago at a major expense to try and lower energy costs, be more "green", and embrace the new tech. The problem is I have failure rates on par with incans in most of the fixtures (we actually turn the lights off when we aren't in a room, so our kwh usage is very low and we have a high on/off rate), they aren't warming up as fast as advertised (especially in the winter and in the sunk/enclosed fixtures, which is most of our house), and the light quality isn't the same. People that have any one of the same issues we do will have the exact same concerns with CFL's.

FWIW, our house now has a mix of everything. The low-on/off rate bulbs (porch light, garage lights) are CFL, the high on/off are incandescent, the sunk fixtures are halogen, and we have a few LED's.

(PS - Anybody want to buy some gently used CFL's? I have a garage full of them now...)

dculberson wrote:

Javelin wrote: Pack of 12 Incandescent: $4.00 ($0.33/bulb) Pack of 2 CFL's: $7.87 ($3.94/bulb)

(Converted years ratios ob boxes to kwh) Incandescent: 1500 hours CFL: 10,000 hours Incandescent: $0.33/1500*10,000=$2.20 per 10,000 hours CFL: $3.94 per 10,000 hours Watts: Incan: 75w CFL: 19w Incandescent: 75 watts x 10,000 hours / 1,000 watts/kWh x $0.0537/kWh = $40.275 for 10,000 hours of light CFL: 19 watts x 10,000 hours / 1,000 watts/kWh x $0.0537/kWh = $10.203 for 10,000 hours of light So total cost over a 10,000 hour span of a given light being on: Incandescent: $2.20 bulb cost, $40.28 power cost = $42.48 CFL: $3.94 bulb cost, $10.20 power cost = $14.14

Re-did with my numbers (watts, life-span from the boxes, kwh per statement). Surprising how much difference their still is, especially as in my case the incans turn out cheaper per bulb/10000 kwh than the CFL's.

I have to figure out how to keep CFL's from blowing out, how to get them to light up faster, and what to do with my damn migraines. Because that's still a ton of cash per bulb savings...

how is your power there Javelin? I know here, we have meters at work that monitor what comes into the building.. and the last place I worked at, we had them.. we are pretty rock steady with 119 to 121 volts at any one time.

I am wondering if you are getting spikes or drops on a regular basis that might be shortening your lamp lifespan

In reply to mad_machine:

I have watched it using a plug-in meter (so nothing scientific), but it's pretty bad. You can see voltage swings fairly often and of a decent amount, say a 10V span. Honestly though, I think our personal use (lots of cycling on/off) and the way the house is built (sunk and covered fixtures) has a lot more to do with it.

FWIW, the power will flip the battery charger for the cars off about every hour from voltage spikes/drops...

Javelin wrote: In reply to dculberson: I don't think there's any political or weirdness involved with CFL issues for most people that actually try them.

That's the problem with your CONSTANT assumptions on basically anything you rant about.

There are plenty of people in this thread who have had the EXACT opposite experience with them. So "most people that actually try them" is hardly fair, it's just an unsubstantiated way for you to add some type of credibility to your own claims.

Again, I'll still say I'm amazed what at what some of you get so upset about.

z31maniac wrote:

Javelin wrote: In reply to dculberson: I don't think there's any political or weirdness involved with CFL issues for most people that actually try them.

That's the problem with your CONSTANT assumptions on basically anything you rant about. There are plenty of people in this thread who have had the EXACT opposite experience with them. So "most people that actually try them" is hardly fair, it's just an unsubstantiated way for you to add some type of credibility to your own claims. Again, I'll still say I'm amazed what at what some of you get so upset about.

Holy crap man, what is that E36 M3? Most people that COMPLAIN about them. Thought that was kind of obvious, but I guess not. The people that actually COMPLAIN about the CFL's have the issues I stated. I was not stating that "most people who use CFL's" hate them, that's absurd! Crikey hell!

And as for the small potatoes crap, YOU shell out $20 a month replacing bulbs and spend 3 days a month in the ER with migraine attacks and tell me "lightbulbs aren't worth complaining about".

Some people.

In reply to dculberson:

I think you've outposted me at least two-to-one on this thread. So who's ranting now? All I've done is relate some first-person experience and leave behind a humorous tale or two. You have attacked those who disagree with you with a most ungentlemanly fervor. I must assume that your income is closely tied to the sale of CFL's. I wish you luck, but I ain't buying!

@z31: Calm down, buddy, I think Javelin has been pretty reasonable and is just trying to figure stuff out.

@Javelin: Yep, it's amazing how much money you can save with them, but honestly the migraine thing would be a huge deal for me. If CFL's caused me migraines I would get rid of them as soon as I practically could. Maybe a different color temperature or brand would help?

@1988RedT2: I have posted with numbers and facts, you have posted with attacks and hyperbole and political ramblings. If you can point out a single post where I attacked you, I will sincerely apologize for it. I have absolutely no financial interest in any lighting, energy, production, or electrical company in any way. I am just a person interested in facts and reality, not perception and posturing. It's obvious you're reading more into my posts than is there, for whatever reason. I don't care.

dculberson wrote: If CFL's caused me migraines I would get rid of them as soon as I practically could. Maybe a different color temperature or brand would help?

The latest batch I bought was the same brand, but a different product line. The box promised "warm, inviting" color. I'm experimenting, because I think the triggers (for me) might be more the harshness/intensity versus the flicker?

The halogens are really nice, but the cost/savings really doesn't line up for them (5x more money than an incan for 33% energy savings, but life?).

The LED's are very nice.

I'll just leave this here!

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml11/11001.html

And yeah, I know, it's a gubmint website, so intended for chuckles only, please.

And I bet I look a little less crazy next to some of these people:

http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=262771

http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100504113728AAg8y9i

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message477002/pg1

http://futurecreep.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/the-light-bulb-conspiracy/

1988RedT2 wrote: I'll just leave this here! http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml11/11001.html And yeah, I know, it's a gubmint website, so intended for chuckles only, please. And I bet I look a little less crazy next to some of these people: http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=262771 http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100504113728AAg8y9i http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message477002/pg1 http://futurecreep.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/the-light-bulb-conspiracy/

I have no problem getting info from a government web site, any more than I problems getting info from manufacturers - sure they have an interest in you thinking of the product a certain way but you're able to process their information and try to figure out the facts. One particular bulb causing fires is not a reason to distrust all bulbs. There are plenty of cars that cause fires but we still like cars, right?

There's always a person crazier than yourself. I know I'm crazy. Everyone is. It's a continuum, you just hope not to one day wake up and realize you're at the farrrrr end of the scale.

Javelin wrote: In reply to dculberson: Good math, but you make some assumptions that skew the figures. First, my local PUD is $0.0537 per kwh according to my statement. Second, the wattage for the bulb prices I gave are 75W for the incandescent and 19W for the CFL, according to their boxes (remember, these are also all advertised at the same lumens, between 1100-1150, and most CFL's don't advertise that as they don't get close). I tried to find hours of life on the boxes, but GE rates by years (odd). The incandescents are 1.5 year and the CFL are 10 year. GE does sell some "0.7 year" incans, but they are a different model line (and even cheaper). Additionally, there are longer-lasting CFL's, but again, a different model line (and more $$). Trying to stay like-for-like here as much as possible so the only variables are light bulb type and price. I need to at least take a picture of the LED box so I can math that one out as well. I'm sure it's worth it since the thing will never burn out, but damn that's a lot of dough per bulb.

I think your rate for power is .066/kWh plus a flat 7 bucks per month. Should be same as mine, that's what mine is?

I just replaced some outdoor floods with CFLs, and now they aren't turning off like they should. Wondering if they use something like an adjustable thermistor in order to turn off after a while, maybe the CFLs don't pull enough current to heat up the element enough to turn them off. Jcamper

In reply to Jcamper:

I dunno, I got the rate right off of my monthly statement. I probably missed that "flat rate" though. We're unincorporated County, are you in any city limits?