cheapest way to go fast

I've dicked around with all manner of racing for decades, and spent a ton. I'd been incrementally bleeding money for some years baby-stepping an e36 M3 from stock autocrosser to competitive TT car and eventually NASA GTS car.

Then I was offered a D sports racer w/ a ton of up-graydes for less than I'd spent on stuff for the M3. I could race it for 2 years, sell it for what it's actually worth, and be even up for 2 seasons of SCCA - all in.

So - name something for less than ten grand that'll do 1'17.0" at Summit?

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: The front of the WERA National guys run 1:13s at Summit Point on open class litre bikes and 15-17s on 600s. These are pro riders on top notch national winning race bikes. SCCA CSR club racers in 20 year old Lolas, Van Diemans and RALTs costing less than $20k run 1:06-1:10s. An SCCA GT2 350z will run 1:16s there. 4 tires > 2 tires when there are turns in a lap.

True, but I'd argue the bike guys skill level to run that speed is dramatically higher.

That's why guys like Rossi can jump into an F1 car and within a few sessions be turning competitive times, and guys like Schumi end up breaking their collarbones while at the back of the pack.

But I was mainly getting at the cost to run.

mguar wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

mguar wrote: In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker: Good question. I think the reason people start with street vehicles over pure race cars is because street stuff starts out so cheap compared to pure race stuff.. The race cars I've raced started out as a cash layout (typically less than $500.) and payments over time. That is I bought stuff when I had money not when the bank demanded payment.. That way I felt if I should happen to wreck it I could either fix it or start over.. Yes a car designed as a race car from the start will be faster than a converted street car. but I'm thinking more of the guy with a few bucks left over from his paycheck not a trust fund baby.. Or someone with the means to lay out the money purpose built race cars cost.. As far as shifter cart, well One could make a case for motorcycles and other sorts of motorsports as well. I just happen to be a sportscar guy..

I get more racing done if i start with a cheap car. If i have to wait to buy a ready to go race car, then i don't race as much. Also, if we all start doing this, who will build the cars? Dumb discussion. There's no right or wrong answer, not everyone wants the same thing I'll take a Honda to go racing with. Preferably starting with a bone stock one. Alternatively, take a gander at my Escort build.

To get a Honda/Escort/? To go as fast as the big thunderboomers do you'll need to spend a lot more than thunderboomer money. As far as building one.. Well that will provide you with an education and knowledge is power.. If you didn't build your car then you need to deal with who is going to repair it. What will he cost? when is he available? If you get to the track and something goes wrong if you built it then you also know how to repair it.. You won't need to miss racing, pay for labor, and have that fixed only to have something else fail.. Knowledge is power.. However your main point is valid, we're all different..

Not necessarily true, and if it really is, this is what classes are for.

I'm pretty sure if/when the Escort is done, it'll have no problems being faster than a $10k Porsche. (Maybe barring a well-planned 944 Turbo, but i imagine you weren't talking about 944s when you made your post.)

Starting in a slower car teaches you the precision and good habits that you can translate to going uber-fast in the higher budget cars. Having power does a lot to cover up mistakes. Cover up mistakes is a good way to learn bad habits.

And, purpose built is absolutely a better way to go than taking a street car and building it up.

mguar wrote: Yes a car designed as a race car from the start will be faster than a converted street car. but I'm thinking more of the guy with a few bucks left over from his paycheck not a trust fund baby..

I'm the guy with a few bucks left over from his paycheck - and I'm racing a home-built tin top that has the speed to be a top 5 car nationally with BMWCCA or NASA in full blown modified (with better reliability/setup and prep from it's shoddy crew of children and myself). Now the car itself wasn't expensive - but the time, the fabrication tools, the materials and the testing/changing/sorting instead of racing was. The tires are a fortune that will easily surpass the total cost of the car in 2 seasons. Hauling it across the country is a massive expense in additional vehicle capacity.

I enjoyed the process - I do like to fabricate things as much as I like to race but in terms of cost alone I can say that if I bought a Formula Atlantic or a Radical for what seems like a lot of money - I wouldn't need thousands of dollars worth of fabrication equipment, a big diesel truck, $250/pop 2 weekend tires or any of the other things I have around to turn POS street cars into passable race cars and move them.

I would bet that a $40k RALT would have been cheaper in the long term to buy, feed, tow, store and maintain. It is also faster right out of the box than any 2 seater car or any super bike except maybe the top rung of MotoGP.

I'l never actually know - because I'm too far in the other direction and I'm having plenty of grins anyway. It's just fun to speculate.

Which car sets the fastest lap depends largely on the track as well. Some tracks will favor big horsepower, others will favor tight handling.

Figure out what you want to do, do your homework, get a car, prep as required, go racing.

motomoron wrote: So - name something for less than ten grand that'll do 1'17.0" at Summit?

Did you say "less than $10k"? (head explodes)

We need to talk - I am so ready to hang up the wrenches for a while and go race. I have been trying to get my GTS car to be easier to drive and not break nights and weekends since Mid-Ohio just to make Thunderbolt in June... I easily have $10k in it at this point.

Introduce me to this pool of gentlemen selling DSRs for spec 944 money. I am all in.

Anybody want to buy an E30 that can do a 1:19 around Summit?

mguar wrote: In reply to Javelin: You're correct. If there was space I would have qualified it further. However put a turbo on that Honda Civic and you still can't lap as fast as a Thunderboomer will. Like I said yes it may be fun to get a little econonbox to go as fast as the Corvette, but you will spend more money and not be as reliable..

It depends on the course. There are plenty of places were a little cars like a Civic, Miata etc will leave a big powerful car for dead. Look at Lotus some times less is more.

Formula Mazda is a great fun/dollar car. Outright costs between $10-20k, relatively cheap running costs. I drove my brother's for 3 sessions in a time trial and couldn't wipe the grin off my face.

93EXCivic wrote: It depends on the course. There are plenty of places were a little cars like a Civic, Miata etc will leave a big powerful car for dead. Look at Lotus some times less is more.

There are truly no places where a Civic or a Miata are going to leave a Corvette or Viper race car "for dead" when they have all been given a reasonable amount of unrestricted development work to go fast. The places where you see that happen usually involve either restrictive rules or a tube chassis with a body that looks like a street car sitting on it.

mguar wrote: In reply to Javelin: You're correct. If there was space I would have qualified it further. However put a turbo on that Honda Civic and you still can't lap as fast as a Thunderboomer will. Like I said yes it may be fun to get a little econonbox to go as fast as the Corvette, but you will spend more money and not be as reliable..

Who said I was putting the turbo onto a little 4-banger? You realize that I'm from a drag racing/V8 background and am restoring a Javelin with a 360, right? Or that last summer I had 6 V8's in my garage?

And what the hell is a "Thunderboomer" anyways?

My answer to the fastest lap times for the cheapest would be a 4th Gen F-body on ~325 R6's with some sort of boost strapped on.

If you actually want to door-to-door race (yet another pigeon-holing qualification), then again I'll echo the smarter people above me who said a CSR/DSR type racer. There's dozens for sale below $25K with full spares ready to go, and you can race them everywhere and pull lap times faster than the bikes.

mguar wrote: In reply to CPannell: $10-20,000 isn't gonna come out of a paycheck. I'm speaking about if you have say $500 or less in your pocket and want to go racing..

Where the eff are you getting $500 Corvette's?

I mean really, what the heck are you getting at here. The only way to "race" with $500 is a kart rental or a demo derby. Maybe a short track "Hornets" class.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: It depends on the course. There are plenty of places were a little cars like a Civic, Miata etc will leave a big powerful car for dead. Look at Lotus some times less is more.

There are truly no places where a Civic or a Miata are going to leave a Corvette or Viper race car "for dead" when they have all been given a reasonable amount of unrestricted development work to go fast. The places where you see that happen usually involve either restrictive rules or a tube chassis with a body that looks like a street car sitting on it.

Autocross course? By the time you buy a Viper, you can build a hell of a quick Miata (with a V8).

Javelin wrote:

mguar wrote: In reply to CPannell: $10-20,000 isn't gonna come out of a paycheck. I'm speaking about if you have say $500 or less in your pocket and want to go racing..

Where the eff are you getting $500 Corvette's? I mean really, what the heck are you getting at here. The only way to "race" with $500 is a kart rental or a demo derby. Maybe a short track "Hornets" class.

Yeah i don't even know what this thread is supposed to be about anymore.

In reply to 93EXCivic:

Well you didn't say equal cost, but even disregarding all of this foolishness, the SCCA Nationals times say otherwise. Last time I checked SS was still faster than CS, etc...

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

Javelin wrote:

mguar wrote: In reply to CPannell: $10-20,000 isn't gonna come out of a paycheck. I'm speaking about if you have say $500 or less in your pocket and want to go racing..

I mean really, what the heck are you getting at here?

Yeah i don't even know what this thread is supposed to be about anymore.

Seriously, right? So let's flounder then, how's the Deathscort coming Ben? I know you hate wrenching, but it's a cool car to me anyway. Haven't seen any updates in awhile.

93EXCivic wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: It depends on the course. There are plenty of places were a little cars like a Civic, Miata etc will leave a big powerful car for dead. Look at Lotus some times less is more.

There are truly no places where a Civic or a Miata are going to leave a Corvette or Viper race car "for dead" when they have all been given a reasonable amount of unrestricted development work to go fast. The places where you see that happen usually involve either restrictive rules or a tube chassis with a body that looks like a street car sitting on it.

Autocross course? By the time you buy a Viper, you can build a hell of a quick Miata (with a V8).

That isn't sports car racing. I'm also pretty sure you would spend an assload of $ trying to make a Miata beat a $20k used Viper thru the cones given a Randy Pobst back-to-back driving both - but you would certainly out-spend yourself trying it on a road course.

I see that the OP has taken this thread down to $500 to go road racing though so... I guess this is now a thread about bicycles :)

Javelin wrote: In reply to 93EXCivic: Well you didn't say equal cost, but even disregarding all of this foolishness, the SCCA Nationals times say otherwise. Last time I checked SS was still faster than CS, etc...

I was kinda assuming equal cost since this was supposed to be about the cheapest way to go fast. No one specified classes or anything.

Anyway who gives a flying berkeley. Build or buy what you want to race and have fun (for me that is a vintage race Spitfire and an Challenge Yugo).

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

93EXCivic wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: It depends on the course. There are plenty of places were a little cars like a Civic, Miata etc will leave a big powerful car for dead. Look at Lotus some times less is more.

There are truly no places where a Civic or a Miata are going to leave a Corvette or Viper race car "for dead" when they have all been given a reasonable amount of unrestricted development work to go fast. The places where you see that happen usually involve either restrictive rules or a tube chassis with a body that looks like a street car sitting on it.

Autocross course? By the time you buy a Viper, you can build a hell of a quick Miata (with a V8).

That isn't sports car racing. I'm also pretty sure you would spend an assload of $ trying to make a Miata beat a $20k used Viper thru the cones given a Randy Pobst back-to-back driving both - but you would certainly out-spend yourself trying it on a road course.

The OP didn't say sports car racing.

mguar wrote: In reply to 93EXCivic: low cost? I suppose spending $30-40,000 on a tricked out Honda is low cost ...... to some.. I'm thinking of someone with maybe $500 in their pocket.. Yes there possibly are tracks where a tricked out Honda or Lotus will beat a Thunderboomer Assuming the Honda/Lotus is driven well. Yes David versus Goliath races are fun. I can appreciate the intensity required to keep the energy up and not scrub off speed.. ON the other hand feeling that big motor shove you back into your seat is really a lot of fun as well..

What sort of fast race car are we buying for $500?

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I see that the OP has taken this thread down to $500 to go road racing though so... I guess this is now a thread about bicycles :)

Bicycles are freaking expensive! $500 is like slot car racing territory, maybe, and only then HO scale (maybe 1/43).

mguar wrote: In reply to 93EXCivic: low cost? I suppose spending $30-40,000 on a tricked out Honda is low cost ...... to some.. I'm thinking of someone with maybe $500 in their pocket.. Yes there possibly are tracks where a tricked out Honda or Lotus will beat a Thunderboomer Assuming the Honda/Lotus is driven well. Yes David versus Goliath races are fun. I can appreciate the intensity required to keep the energy up and not scrub off speed.. ON the other hand feeling that big motor shove you back into your seat is really a lot of fun as well..

Sorry but very few people are going to spend $30-$40k on a Honda. Either way they can be made fairly quick for a lot less then that. And look at the GRM Challenge. How many 'Vettes have won versus Hondas?

Javelin wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

Javelin wrote:

mguar wrote: In reply to CPannell: $10-20,000 isn't gonna come out of a paycheck. I'm speaking about if you have say $500 or less in your pocket and want to go racing..

I mean really, what the heck are you getting at here?

Yeah i don't even know what this thread is supposed to be about anymore.

Seriously, right? So let's flounder then, how's the Deathscort coming Ben? I know you hate wrenching, but it's a cool car to me anyway. Haven't seen any updates in awhile.

Bunchof the pictures are probably dead. I'm too dumb to know how my phone works and i deleted my "uploaded" folder on it, and apparently it deleted everything off my Picasa album when it sync'd up. (I didn't know it did that.) Sooo... i have 328 photos to re-upload and re-insert into various build threads and for sale threads i guess.

I did spend about 30 hours on the MX6 Mafia poster child in the last couple days, though. I should make a thread for E36 M3s and giggles.

mguar wrote: In reply to motomoron: $10,000? what if that's not in the pocket? What if you have say barely $500? but periodically you might have that much or a touch more? Banks won't loan money on a race car (thank goodness)

Then according to your first post, you may as well not bother trying to race if you only have $500 in your pocket. Wait and save until you can build/buy something awesome because it's cheaper in the end. Sorry charlie, you aren't racing for awhile.

93EXCivic wrote:

mguar wrote: In reply to 93EXCivic: low cost? I suppose spending $30-40,000 on a tricked out Honda is low cost ...... to some.. I'm thinking of someone with maybe $500 in their pocket.. Yes there possibly are tracks where a tricked out Honda or Lotus will beat a Thunderboomer Assuming the Honda/Lotus is driven well. Yes David versus Goliath races are fun. I can appreciate the intensity required to keep the energy up and not scrub off speed.. ON the other hand feeling that big motor shove you back into your seat is really a lot of fun as well..

Sorry but very few people are going to spend $30-$40k on a Honda. Either way they can be made fairly quick for a lot less then that. And look at the GRM Challenge. How many 'Vettes have won versus Hondas?

Clearly the Honda drivers are just wasting money and should have saved up for a vette instead.