cheapest way to go fast

Apexcarver wrote: F500 car

Good call. Didn't think about those.

mguar wrote: In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker: Try Elkart Lake, Road America. There are three straights that in a fast car will get your heart pumping. My 6 cylinder Jag will get to 150+ The V12 is 180+ and some cars are north of 200 Not to mention how narrow the track is compared to more modern tracks.. (Built in 1955) Don't forget you may be in a pack of cars inches apart at those sorts of speeds..

I'll be racing there next season. I wouldn't imagine it to be a very exiting place except the from the Carousel back to the uphill S/F. I doubt it will add any drama over going 3 wide up the esses at the Glen at any rate. I've noticed that you really can't tell the difference between 150 from 180 until you brake anyway. Instructing from the the passenger seat of an intermediate student with a C6 Z-06 is more intense than either of those scenarios :)

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I see that the OP has taken this thread down to $500 to go road racing though so... I guess this is now a thread about bicycles :)

BAWAHAHAHAHAHA...

The wheels on my XC racing bike cost more than $500...

I bought my E30 with the delusional plan to use it for auto-x and then TT and maybe racing...

Sadly, that plan has proved to be a dismal failure as the car seems to break at the mere sight of an auto-x course...

I'd love a DSR, but a F500 is not much slower and a whole bunch cheaper to buy and run.

CPannell wrote: In reply to Apexcarver: From talking to F600 racers, the biggest reason why they switched from F500 is the CVT. Apparently CVT setup is the difference between a class win and being DFL. They also said that it's black magic and paying someone to do it is damn expensive.

That is one thing that is concerning me about the class. My hope is that I can figure it out. (CVT and 2smoke carb tuning will be new things for me to learn)

My plan is to start with the (cheap used) F500 and either convert to F600 or get a new car after a few years. I want to see how the the 600 thing shakes out on the national scene over the next year or two before diving into that.

If they were the same buy-in price.. I would be 600 in a heartbeat. Right now, there are lots of 500 cars and only a handful of conversions with fewer of those trading hands. So, you would be looking at buying a roller and converting. I have the fab skills, I would rather start out with proven package then shaking down something new.

Apexcarver wrote: We can all argue in circles till blue in the face on this. From one perspective you could say shifter kart #/endthread I have been looking an thinking for quite awhile. Once I have a job in my field and I can save for a bit and settle down here is the answer I have arrived at. F500 car

+1. Although I'm planning to play with karts first since they take up a lot less space, but eventually I want to go with F500.

Have you read the F600 proposal from a couple of Fast Tracks ago? There will be afew differences between F500 and F600 besides the engine.

Otherwise I agree - start with F500 and then maybe move to F600. Granted, being in the Northeast, CVT knowledge is a little easier for me to come by. Besides that, the whole "black art" thing seems to be a bit over-blown from what I've heard from guys racing.

Salanis wrote: Starting in a slower car teaches you the precision and good habits that you can translate to going uber-fast in the higher budget cars. Having power does a lot to cover up mistakes. Cover up mistakes is a good way to learn bad habits. And, purpose built is absolutely a better way to go than taking a street car and building it up.

I only made it halfway through the thread but so far this is my agreement right here.

Starting out, buy someones old track car cuz their cheap. Learn to drive, sell the slower car when you think you are ready for more power and can afford the cost of bigger/more expensive consumables.

I love the idea that the OP thinks you have to hit the ground running, so to speak, as to not have your testicals revoked for not going fast on day one. You need to learn so much before you even should care about lap times or if you are keeping up with the Jones' such as traffic management and remembering to look at flag stations and not have the red mist going on. I am not saying everyone should go out and buy an econobox, but not everyone needs to go out and get the fastest track rat to prove you are a credible driver. Thats just egotistical.

What I am going to be looking at as far as a purpose built car when I am ready to purchase a purpose built:

maintenance is stupid cheap and the cars are stupid cheap. Also being as big as I am(6'5") I know I can fit since Brad Daugherty can fit his gigantic self in one.

Ian, are you referring to the proposals for the wheelbase stuff? I am watching it on the 3 forums I have found where that class hangs out. (Figure I will lurk on them until I can actually start looking for a car) The fast track stuff is all proposals that don't seem like they will go through. (at least to my understanding)

The stated goal of the class is for 500 and 600 to be merged with the 600's restricted so they are not overdogs. Also remember that they have allowed the 593 2smoke into F500. If that stuff does happen to go through it looks like it would apply to the 500 cars as well. (which would quickly outdate MANY preexisting cars, hence why evidence seems unlikely)

I do have to say one thing about the class, they seem to be in the middle of a civil war with a 500 camp and a 600 camp. Some people didnt take kindly at all to the 600 proposal.

This is all I get when I google "Thunderboomer". It doesn't look very exciting.

Otto Maddox wrote: This is all I get when I google "Thunderboomer". It doesn't look very exciting.

Take off safe search and add the keyword 'Scheisse'

So what I get from the first post is to buy the cheapest E36 M3tiest fast car I can find...and race it. Maybe I can find a Mustang with 600 hp that was welded together from two wrecks by a high school shop class, with whatever brakes they could find, and maybe a some Chinese stars welding to the middle of the steering wheel to make it look cool.

Or I could buy a spec Miata or a cart or something and actually have fun and improve my driving skills.

Otto Maddox wrote: Or I could buy a spec Miata or a cart or something and actually have fun and improve my driving skills.

^^^This unless you fall in this camp:

mguar wrote: Any car has a throttle. Start at whatever speed you feel comfortable at. You can drive a big engined car just as slow as a little econobox. It's just that when you are ready to go faster You don't have to sell and buy or build new etc..

Except that one of the important skills you need to learn is to quickly and smoothly transition to full throttle at the earliest opportunity.

If you start in a momentum car (notice, I'm not saying "slow"), when you want to go faster, your only option is to learn to drive better. I've seen plenty of people in fancy, fast cars who never really learned how to be good drivers because their cars are so capable, they didn't have to.

If you want to do it with the least money loss, start by buying an inexpensive already prepped Spec Miata. Learn in that until it really is the car holding you back, not your skills. Then, sell it for basically what you purchased it for and buy the faster car.

The correct answer is to buy someone else's already prepped and logbooked momentum race car.

Salanis wrote:

mguar wrote: Any car has a throttle. Start at whatever speed you feel comfortable at. You can drive a big engined car just as slow as a little econobox. It's just that when you are ready to go faster You don't have to sell and buy or build new etc..

Except that one of the important skills you need to learn is to quickly and smoothly transition to full throttle at the earliest opportunity. If you start in a momentum car (notice, I'm not saying "slow"), when you want to go faster, your only option is to learn to drive better. I've seen plenty of people in fancy, fast cars who never really learned how to be good drivers because their cars are so capable, they didn't have to. If you want to do it with the least money loss, start by buying an inexpensive already prepped Spec Miata. Learn in that until it really is the car holding you back, not your skills. Then, sell it for basically what you purchased it for and buy the faster car. The correct answer is to buy someone else's already prepped and logbooked momentum race car.

Man, you think WAY too much like I do. Agreed, agreed, and agreed.

Come to think of it though, he was saying the cheapest way to go fast. Not necessarily learn how to become a good driver.

Salanis wrote: Except that one of the important skills you need to learn is to quickly and smoothly transition to full throttle at the earliest opportunity. If you start in a momentum car (notice, I'm not saying "slow"), when you want to go faster, your only option is to learn to drive better. I've seen plenty of people in fancy, fast cars who never really learned how to be good drivers because their cars are so capable, they didn't have to. If you want to do it with the least money loss, start by buying an inexpensive already prepped Spec Miata. Learn in that until it really is the car holding you back, not your skills. Then, sell it for basically what you purchased it for and buy the faster car. The correct answer is to buy someone else's already prepped and logbooked momentum race car.

I would say an IT car would be a better starting point. Cheaper to be competitive and not nearly as much shenanigans going on. The worst part about SM seems to be getting caught up in someone else's cock-up. One person gets excited in Turn 1, Lap 1, and there's 5 car collateral damage.

While there are some blatantly "overpowered" cars in IT, the drivers are much more respectful (on track, everyone's friendly in the paddock), and there isn't nearly as much paint traded. If you get something low-weight and underpowered you get the "fun" of trying to get around that goddamn IT7/ITS 944 that's slow in the corners and fast on the straight. Mixed chassis races are a LOT of fun, partially because every car you come across has a different line and different strengths and weaknesses that you have to study and overcome.

As far as the thunderboomers go, thanks to classes, speed isn't an absolute measurement. A berkeleying fast Grade A #1 ITB car might only hit 90 on the back straight at Road Atlanta, but I can guarantee that their knuckles are just as white as the ex-NASCAR GTA driver's in the braking zone.

This thread sounds like an argument for Formula Kludge, to me.

In reply to mguar:

My advice with SM was not to say that is the best series to race in. I'm saying it will be hard to beat an SM for a car that will be easy to resell for the same price it was purchased for, and that will be a good vehicle to learn good driving habits in.

I'm just talking about a good car to start HPDE in.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

SVreX wrote: In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker: I know a lot of drag racers who would thoroughly disagree with you implying that drag racing is not racing. 10 second cars running 130 mph that are completely NHRA legal for under $2K is pretty cheap speed.

I didn't imply it wasn't racing. I stated that it wasn't the kind this thread was in reference to.

Maybe. Maybe not.

The truth is that the original post and title of the thread don't make any statement whatsoever about what kind of racing. I guess you could read the entire thread and come to whatever conclusion you want to, because this is perhaps the most unfocused and pointless thread I've ever seen.

Carry on.

Jesus, now he's responding to himself.

Hey, us older guys are allowed to talk to ourselves occasionally.

mguar wrote: In reply to z31maniac: Sorry, I'm a real computer luddite and must have hit the enter button in mid thought so I just continued on to finish my thought.. Is there an easier way?

On the grey bar ("header") of your own posts, there's two boxes on the right. The one on the outside is an "X", that one deletes the post. The one on the inside (looks like a pencil over the box) is "edit". It's not really "easier", but it's considered more polite--especially if you add something like "EDIT: pressed enter too soon."

Or just ninja edit before anyone sees it and you win one free internet.

I'm still not sure how if w2w is your goal the argument can even be touched that anything except Karts could be the answer. I have $1300 into a KT100 kart that is legal to run w2w. Tires are near free or $200 for brand new ones. Gas and consumables are cheap and you don't really need a tow vehicle. You can run at the pointy end of the field in clone or KT100 for a 3-5k buy in and a top spec shifter won't run you much over 10k. Fields are large tracks are all over and entry fees are cheap ($35-$50 typically). I don't think there is anything else that cheap.

Javelin wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I see that the OP has taken this thread down to $500 to go road racing though so... I guess this is now a thread about bicycles :)

Bicycles are freaking expensive! $500 is like slot car racing territory, maybe, and only then HO scale (maybe 1/43).

Truth.

$500 will get you a nice lugged steel frame Japanese bike from the 80s with Shimano 105 equipment. If you're lucky, you might find something with Dura-Ace or lower-end Campy...maybe.

Want Italian? $800+ for "decent"

Bikes hold their value exceedingly well compared to cars. Well, if they have value when you buy them that is.

What is safety like for shifter carts? I'm rather fond of having a hans, harness, and safety cage.

Having driven a Yamaha 100cc roadrace kart a couple of times, you definitely need a full face helmet because a massive amount of sand etc gets thrown in your face. It's not all that different from racing motorcycles. In an autocross, cones look like redwood trees. On a road course, you are the roll cage.