Unfortunately, I think the zoo had no choice but to make the call that they did- they were damned if they did or damned if they didn't the moment the kid fell into the enclosure.
That said- there should be accountability from the mother in some way. As was said earlier- if she'd not been watching her kid and he'd broken some crap in the gift shop, she'd be expected to pay for it. Her actions caused the loss of an irreplaceable rare animal- there should be consequences from that.
revrico wrote:GameboyRMH wrote: Can't blame the zoo for killing the gorilla. Not the best solution but a defensible one. It seems like kids don't know how to avoid obvious dangers these days. I knew not to go near dangerous animals, drink poisons, touch dangerous machines, because my parents beat it into my head at every opportunity. Maybe because they were paranoid. Does it take paranoid parents to raise a kid who won't go play with a gorilla?No, it takes something much more spectacular. A parent who can look up from their cell phone and keep track of their spawn. Kid leashes have been around for generations now. Zoos, malls, fairs, that's what they're made for. If you have so many you can't keep track, keep them on a leash or only take as many as you can carry with you at one time.
I think if you have to put a kid on a leash something has already gone terribly wrong. The mom shouldn't even need to be around to keep a kid from doing something as cartoonishly idiotic as intentionally entering a gorilla's enclosure. The fact that he didn't choose to stay out of the gorilla's enclosure on his own is evidence of some terrible shortcoming in the kid's upbringing.
Fueled by Caffeine wrote: In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯: I'm at home right now, but for others. I've heard many comedians go off about this subject, it's always funny and mostly right. Still dosen't change my main point. Those without responsibilit for another human's life are very quick to judge those who do.. After kids, i've caught myself thinking about the crap I used to say when I was pre-kids. The dumb stuff I used to say. "I'll never blah blah or That won't be me, or I'll do better with my kids".. I'm my own worst enemy some times.
Sure, but while we're accepting that kids occasionally getting out of hand or being inadequately supervised is a reality, why not also accept that those without them are going to talk E36 M3 about it? If nobody commented on anything they don't have direct experience with, we wouldn't have a whole lot to talk about.
In reply to ¯_(ツ)_/¯:
I agree. Comedians sometimes are a necessary mirror to reflect back our own absurdities.
I haven't read the thread, and I suspect my thoughts have been covered, but in case not, I'll throw this out there:
Sucks that he was shot. Sucks a lot.
Sucks the kid had to endure something that was no doubt terrifying.
Sucks that the mom didn't do a good job looking after the kids she was entrusted with, especially since he just said he wanted to get into the water with the gorillas!
Sucks that the zoo had to do what they did. I'm sure they are saddened deeply.
Surprising note:
The mom released a statement telling people to stop sending money and gifts to the family. If they feel compelled to give, she asked that donations be directed to the Cinci Zoo.
GameboyRMH wrote:revrico wrote:I think if you have to put a kid on a leash something has already gone terribly wrong. The mom shouldn't even need to be around to keep a kid from doing something as cartoonishly idiotic as intentionally entering a gorilla's enclosure. The fact that he didn't choose to stay out of the gorilla's enclosure on his own is evidence of some terrible shortcoming in the kid's upbringing.GameboyRMH wrote: Can't blame the zoo for killing the gorilla. Not the best solution but a defensible one. It seems like kids don't know how to avoid obvious dangers these days. I knew not to go near dangerous animals, drink poisons, touch dangerous machines, because my parents beat it into my head at every opportunity. Maybe because they were paranoid. Does it take paranoid parents to raise a kid who won't go play with a gorilla?No, it takes something much more spectacular. A parent who can look up from their cell phone and keep track of their spawn. Kid leashes have been around for generations now. Zoos, malls, fairs, that's what they're made for. If you have so many you can't keep track, keep them on a leash or only take as many as you can carry with you at one time.
Are you serious? I can't tell. The kid was three years old.
Yeah I'm serious. 3 is plenty old enough to know better than to do borderline-suicidal things like that. Is it really just me?
Ashyukun wrote: Unfortunately, I think the zoo had no choice but to make the call that they did- they were damned if they did or damned if they didn't the moment the kid fell into the enclosure. That said- there should be accountability from the mother in some way. As was said earlier- if she'd not been watching her kid and he'd broken some crap in the gift shop, she'd be expected to pay for it. Her actions caused the loss of an irreplaceable rare animal- there should be consequences from that.
it saddens me deeply, that I can thumbs up this comment but only once. Exactly right, word for word, as written. Bravo sir.
GameboyRMH wrote:revrico wrote:I think if you have to put a kid on a leash something has already gone terribly wrong. The mom shouldn't even need to be around to keep a kid from doing something as cartoonishly idiotic as intentionally entering a gorilla's enclosure. The fact that he didn't choose to stay out of the gorilla's enclosure on his own is evidence of some terrible shortcoming in the kid's upbringing.GameboyRMH wrote: Can't blame the zoo for killing the gorilla. Not the best solution but a defensible one. It seems like kids don't know how to avoid obvious dangers these days. I knew not to go near dangerous animals, drink poisons, touch dangerous machines, because my parents beat it into my head at every opportunity. Maybe because they were paranoid. Does it take paranoid parents to raise a kid who won't go play with a gorilla?No, it takes something much more spectacular. A parent who can look up from their cell phone and keep track of their spawn. Kid leashes have been around for generations now. Zoos, malls, fairs, that's what they're made for. If you have so many you can't keep track, keep them on a leash or only take as many as you can carry with you at one time.
I used to think that. Then I worked in a mall for a few years. And yes, a lot of it does have to do with up bringing, but some kids are runners, some are climbers, and there isn't much you can do, especially at such a young age to break that other than hold their hand or hold them on a leash. My kid just turned 1(today) and is starting to walk. If anyone thinks by age 3 or whatever, that I won't be holding her hand or her leash when we're out in public, anywhere, they're wrong. Particularly somewhere with so many people and such temptation to get into trouble, she'll be attached to me. I've been to the zoo with two older, age 3 and 6, autistic brothers. Both of them stayed glued to mine and their mom's hands the entire time, and it wasn't that difficult. 2 kids, 2 adults, 0 problems. That includes the petting zoo where they got spooked by the deer coming to see them, and the elephant pit (the 3 year old favorite animal) with such great climbing fences and no 15'drop between the sidewalk and the animals.
At such a young age, what do they really know? "There's an animal, I'm not currently being yelled at, I going to go play" they don't know they'd just be a snack if is angry. On the other hand, there have been plenty of news stories through the years of children being RAISED by wolves or protected by female apes in dangerous situations. But no, can't have anything positive that disrupts the status quo.
This is one of those times where no one was entirely right and no one was entirely wrong. The gorilla is dead, the mom is probably going to get a ridiculous settlement from the zoo, and it's going to be much more frustrating to go see the animals because of one idiot in 40 years. Great, thanks kid.
There are still plenty of teenagers, driving age even, that think it's perfectly fine to walk down the middle of the road at night and ignore headlights coming from either direction. They get hit, we get lower speed limits. I have no doubt a 3 year old would do the same exact thing.
GameboyRMH wrote: Yeah I'm serious. 3 is plenty old enough to know better than to do borderline-suicidal things like that. Is it really just me?
I sure hope it's just you. None of my kids including my current three year old daughter would have that understanding of risk at that age. I'm pretty sure I've never met a three year old that would.
I can understand kids climbing things, running around like hellions, accidentally knocking stuff over, even getting lost, that's normal kid trouble - the sort of thing a parent needs to be watching all the time to keep kids from doing.
Entering a gorilla enclosure is not normal kid trouble. That's almost as bad as reaching under the sink and chugging draino, another thing a kid could theoretically do with a few unsupervised seconds and a shocking lack of basic safety education from their parents.
Again it might be because my parents were paranoid, but by 3 I knew damn well how not to trivially get myself killed.
GameboyRMH wrote: Yeah I'm serious. 3 is plenty old enough to know better than to do borderline-suicidal things like that. Is it really just me?
3 is very young. How many 3 year olds have you spent hundreds of hours around? How many child development textbooks have you read? 3 is far, far too young to even understand death much less "borderline-suicidal things."
Hell, 13 year olds are like that.
This!!!
Jerry wrote: Being from Cincinnati, and living in southern Dayton, I've been reading A LOT about this. That enclosure has existed since 1978, millions of children and adults pour through it, possibly yearly. One child gets through 4 different layers while the mom, who's in charge of 7 kids that day mind you, and the child had just said he wanted to go in the water (red flag mom! watch your berkeleying kid), and suddenly it's the zoo's fault for not having an idiot-proof system? Mom on her cell phone will just spawn a better idiot. I don't blame the zoo for shooting the animal. From what I've read, he seemed to be trying to care for it until everyone started screaming and freaking him out. But if he overestimated and did something to cause the kid's death, in front of a live audience, because they hesitated to decide if it was safe? Nope. That said, mom should be liable. If that kid knocked a $20 plate over in the gift shop and broke it, I'll bet she would be expected to pay. What do you think the street value is for a 17 yr old endangered primate in a large public zoo? "It only takes a second..." Sorry, it took more than a second for him to get thru 4 layers and into that area.
How did a three year old break through and enclosure that could contain a gorilla? Seems this three year old is a bad ass
DrBoost wrote: Surprising note: The mom released a statement telling people to stop sending money and gifts to the family. If they feel compelled to give, she asked that donations be directed to the Cinci Zoo.
That is (somewhat sadly, I will admit) surprising- it shows a level of responsibility and self-awareness that I wasn't expecting. These days you expect people to try and milk any kind of misfortune for all that they can get, so maybe there is hope that the family won't try and sue the zoo after all.
Maybe the bigger issue we should be talking about is whether gorillas belong in Cincinnati.
tuna55 wrote: Human life is more important than animal life.
Well, to humans, sure. I'm not certain other species share that sentiment. For instance, I have it on good authority that the Honey Badger don't give a berkeley.
joey48442 wrote: How did a three year old break through and enclosure that could contain a gorilla? Seems this three year old is a bad ass
The enclosure depended primarily on the fact that the gorilla couldn't get up the wall. Gravity ensured that the kid had no trouble getting down the wall, however.
This is something that has been brought up and discussed a lot with this as well- zoos have increasingly tried to remove actual physical barriers (glass, fencing, etc.) from enclosures to keep from impeding the view and 'experience' of viewing the animals, which means they're not completely sealed off and easier to breach.
That said- IIRC this particular enclosure has been in place since 1978 without anyone getting into it.
dculberson wrote:GameboyRMH wrote: Yeah I'm serious. 3 is plenty old enough to know better than to do borderline-suicidal things like that. Is it really just me?3 is very young. How many 3 year olds have you spent hundreds of hours around? How many child development textbooks have you read? 3 is far, far too young to even understand death much less "borderline-suicidal things."
I understood that death was an undesirable state and that the lead-up to it could be very painful, which is probably more what I was taught to avoid.
For example, I was taught that getting hit by a car or drinking poison would hurt like hell, and that I should stay out of the street, and and not eat anything that wasn't taken from the fridge or given to me by a trusted adult to avoid this (edit: And I was taught not to open the fridge alone, because '80s). I was taught to recognize poison symbols and assume any vaguely-edible-looking stuff I might find is poison until an adult confirms otherwise. I was taught that electricity can cause painful shocks and not to mess with power cords. That stovetops, ovens and hot water taps can burn and to not touch them.
I was taught that wild animals may bite or scratch me (and I understood that this would hurt) and that I should avoid them (including squirrels specifically, which I tried to touch). I was taught to stay away from pets without adult approval.
I learned all that stuff at a house we moved out of when I was about 3 (in fact I remember, in that house, when I put on a smugface and talked down to my little sister who had just turned 2 that I was 3 like a big-shot and my mom laughed hysterically, and I couldn't figure out what was so funny).
These seem like common-sense parenting techniques, but they are apparently unconventional.
I agree with SVreX's initial sentiments about this situation. It is an unfortunate situation for all, but in the end the correct decision was made. Think of the ungodly E36 M3 storm that would come had the child died.
In reply to GameboyRMH:
Not unconventional, just that three year olds do not have the brain power and reasoning skills to understand. Props to you for remembering things that happened when you were three years old, that's impressive.
I pulled a three year old out of a crocodile exhibit at the Jacksonville zoo. The mother and father were standing right there, their attention was on the older sibling and the kid crawled right in.
Ashyukun wrote: That said- IIRC this particular enclosure has been in place since *1978* without anyone getting into it.
I've seen pictures of the enclosure. As a commercial contractor, I can tell you that the enclosure was no where near meeting current code requirements. The fact that no one has been injured since 1978 is a bit miraculous.
However, it's not technically required to meet current codes. That is too bad. The zoo (and many others) will surely correct that problem now.
From a legal perspective, I am certain the family has a strong case. The zoo was liable. They made the right call on shooting the animal, but created the scenario that necessitated it through many years of neglect of basic safety precautions.
In reply to revrico:
I am glad you are a responsible parent.
However, one day in the next 5 years, you will most certainly be in the same situation that virtually every parent has been in at least once, that moment in a public place when you are gripped with fear and panic because you will have lost your child, and have no idea if they could have been abducted, maimed, or killed. I hope that nothing terrible happens in that moment (like most parents).
It won't change the fact that you are a responsible parent. But it will scare the E36 M3 out of you. It will also change your perspective.
Yep-kids spend a large chunk of their childhood trying to die. The "haha I rolled my three wheeler so many times when I was a teenager" thread we just had is proof that most of us had very little understanding of risk as a teen. I doubt we knew much better as a toddler. My brain throws horrible visions of the worst possible outcome at me every time my kids play-it sucks but it makes me strict. Despite that, at 5 years old my son still sprinted away from me at the zoo and got all the way to the next observation deck before I could catch him.
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