College or not

What are your passions?

Unless you can figure out what you want to do for the next forty years, don't spend money on college, because you'll most likely be miserable for 35 of the 40 years and will be paying on those student loans for at least ten. Keep in mind that even if you figured it out, you're probably not going to spend the rest of your life working in that field, but you need to be able to make that decision for your "now" self.

Maybe start with some figuring out. I've heard good things about this book, in fact I've just bought the Kindle edition for myself. you're never too old to figure out things like this.

Marketing is as good a field as any if you're any good at it. It sucks if you suck at it, it can make you happy working in that field if you're decent at it and enjoy it. Same as for just about every other job, too.

What he said^

School is a huge high risk investment these days, don't go in unless you know exactly what you want and are confident you can finish it.

I can't say I'd recommend school to people today. The school loan scam is terrible (apparently much worse today than when I finished school 17 years ago,) there are no jobs once you finish and you just wasted 4-5 years (or more) of the prime of your life when you could have been making money.

Think of things that can't be outsourced. Transportation. The Energy Industry. Plumbing, electrician, welder, things like that.

I'll totally disagree. IF you can be an engineer, there is still a shortage.

We hire outside of the country. It would be nice if we hired within.

Any accredited school is fine for a bachelors, many schools will pay for masters, still.

And the pay scale for prefessionals is still good.

In reply to Dr. Hess:

Its more than just the loans, the whole thing is a racket top to bottom.

alfadriver wrote: I'll totally disagree. IF you can be an engineer, there is still a shortage. We hire outside of the country. It would be nice if we hired within. Any accredited school is fine for a bachelors, many schools will pay for masters, still. And the pay scale for prefessionals is still good.

I have to agree with most of this - in fact, I'm having the same kind of problems hiring people in my field (software). The problem I see with solely choosing a degree based on the potential earnings is going to get you sniffed out and possibly rejected by the people that you want (or should want) to work with if you're lacking the passion for the field.

40 years is a long time working in a field that at best gets a 'meh'. That's why I suggested that Silverbrick27 tries to figure out where his interests lie before accumulating a small house's worth of debt.

TBH while I'm generally happy with the direction of my career and I like the field I'm working in, I still think I would be in a better place if I had a trade to fall back on.

I'm on the fence about the degree thing. Sure you can make good solid money with a trade and do so without debt, but unless you go into business for yourself AND are very lucky; The capped salary will be much lower in the long run. Sometimes, I think I'd be happier having my own contracting business. I'd probably work about the same hours, maybe a bit more, but I'd be working with my hands.

10-11 years ago I started out as an Engineer.. Got an MBA and am now making 4X my starting salary. Sure, I still have many years to pay off loans(with my non-working wife's two Masters Degree's), but over the course of the career I'll make about $2M more than if I hadn't had the degree(s). So paying ~$60K($150K after interest) is painful, but the long term gain offsets the short term pain. Also, to get that growth in salary, hasn't been easy. I've had to move ever 3-4 years, get laid off, change career focus 2 or 3 times. Now I'm currently in the Tech industry.. Hope this works out.

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: I've had to move ever 3-4 years, get laid off, change career focus 2 or 3 times.

That is something to keep in mind when thinking about what you might go to school to learn. I've had the same experience working as an engineer in medical.

Based on that, pick something that has a lot of companies that hire people in that industry in the area of the country you want to live.

Unless you want to get the 3% per year for the rest of your career, you will need to change companies a few times to get bigger bumps in salary and position. If you have to relocate to find to find your next opportunity, it makes it a lot tougher to leapfrog up the ladder.

jstand wrote:

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: I've had to move ever 3-4 years, get laid off, change career focus 2 or 3 times.

That is something to keep in mind when thinking about what you might go to school to learn. I've had the same experience working as an engineer in medical. Based on that, pick something that has a lot of companies that hire people in that industry in the area of the country you want to live. Unless you want to get the 3% per year for the rest of your career, you will need to change companies a few times to get bigger bumps in salary and position. If you have to relocate to find to find your next opportunity, it makes it a lot tougher to leapfrog up the ladder.

In my defense, I will say that having an engineering degree as your base and then adding in something else Law, medical, or Business. People regonize the problem solving methodology as taught in E-school.

Had I done it all over again, I'd be a patent attorney. You get an Engineering Base and a JD afterward. People pay crazy ass money for good technical IP(intellectual Property) people these days and the work load is as hard as you want to make it. You can be a $90K/yr lacky at the Government or a $300K/year corporate lawyer.

BoxheadTim wrote:

alfadriver wrote: I'll totally disagree. IF you can be an engineer, there is still a shortage. We hire outside of the country. It would be nice if we hired within. Any accredited school is fine for a bachelors, many schools will pay for masters, still. And the pay scale for prefessionals is still good.

I have to agree with most of this - in fact, I'm having the same kind of problems hiring people in my field (software). The problem I see with solely choosing a degree based on the potential earnings is going to get you sniffed out and possibly rejected by the people that you want (or should want) to work with if you're lacking the passion for the field. 40 years is a long time working in a field that at best gets a 'meh'. That's why I suggested that Silverbrick27 tries to figure out where his interests lie before accumulating a small house's worth of debt. TBH while I'm generally happy with the direction of my career and I like the field I'm working in, I still think I would be in a better place if I had a trade to fall back on.

Passion helps, but I've never really seen it as that important. It's more important to be willing to learn more and more and put it all together. Most of the people I work with don't have a real passion for cars, nothing like most people here do. But that's also a good thing, where the passion can blindly go after the wrong thing.

There's a whole host of companies that make stuff. All of them need engineers to design stuff- be it the actual product or the process that makes the process. If one can be an engineer and loves food- there's an entire industry that makes food on an industrial scale. Washing machines, furniture, boxes, etc- all that stuff gets made, and all of it needs some kind of engineering.

Passion can be helpful. I'd be happy with strong interest in something. And then use that job to pay for a passion. It's quite possible that the passion will burn out, which leaves one a little empty.

That's not a racket. That's what built and keeps building countries.

Also, instead of having a back up, be so good that you are needed that bad.

Fueled by Caffeine wrote:

jstand wrote:

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: I've had to move ever 3-4 years, get laid off, change career focus 2 or 3 times.

That is something to keep in mind when thinking about what you might go to school to learn. I've had the same experience working as an engineer in medical. Based on that, pick something that has a lot of companies that hire people in that industry in the area of the country you want to live. Unless you want to get the 3% per year for the rest of your career, you will need to change companies a few times to get bigger bumps in salary and position. If you have to relocate to find to find your next opportunity, it makes it a lot tougher to leapfrog up the ladder.

In my defense, I will say that having an engineering degree as your base and then adding in something else Law, medical, or Business. People regonize the problem solving methodology as taught in E-school. Had I done it all over again, I'd be a patent attorney. You get an Engineering Base and a JD afterward. People pay crazy ass money for good technical IP(intellectual Property) people these days and the work load is as hard as you want to make it. You can be a $90K/yr lacky at the Government or a $300K/year corporate lawyer.

Had I the ability to do it all over again, I'd do it all over again.

Friends were CS or Computer engineers made tons of money at Microsoft. I don't like computers, and probably would not be happy. A person I know was a tech specialist (a higher engineer than I am) and let F pay for Law School- he is a patent attourney, and I'm sure make a ton of money on patent ideas that I have.

I'd still rather do what I do. I'm thankful that my passion of cars really isn't a big deal with my job, which is more about science and thinking than passion stuff.

I'm also ok with the smaller raises. I'm still way more than comfortable. So what that my salary is only 3x what it was when I started. I STILL have the option to go into management if I wanted more. Better yet, if someone in my family get's sick, I can take a month off. I can go tomorrow to home.

But, hey, that's me. YMMV.

My vote is for engineering.

I've changed my major three times before I decided on "electrical engineering". I've been in school long enough to be a doctor, and I'm just about to finish with my Bachelor's . I hadn't really thought about engineering until I saw the Formula SAE group at UTSA. The rest is history.

The company I work for is so short on any sort of engineer (electrical, mechanical, or otherwise) that they pay 100% of your tuition costs if you are enrolled in any sort of program that even mentions the word "engineering".

Your "passion list" of "Archery, and Automotive" make me think of something like "mechanical engineer, or Aerospace engineer" but your "graphics and advertising" make me think of "software engineer".

Good luck!

Marketing is pretty broad. What part of marketing?

alfadriver wrote: Passion can be helpful. I'd be happy with strong interest in something. And then use that job to pay for a passion. It's quite possible that the passion will burn out, which leaves one a little empty.

I agree with that, you expressed it better than I did. I was trying to warn against deciding on a career only based on potential earnings - if you're thinking about doing something for a long time, you better be interested in it.

alfadriver wrote: Also, instead of having a back up, be so good that you are needed that bad.

Doesn't always work like this, unfortunately. Plus, you can be supposedly good at something you dislike, and then you get stuck with it because people don't understand why you want to move sideways/"down" on the career ladder.

DAMHIKIJK, OK?

not to brag.. but I make almost six figures a year now that I am working full time as a Stage Hand. It did take me 20 years of "paying my dues" and I am in one of the higher paying areas for the job (only NY and Chicago pay more). I spent a lot of years starving though.. but I love what I do, enjoy the people, and make good money.

If you can go back to school for a subject that you enjoy.. do it, but don't go for a degree to make money (Like my communications degree). Not only will you hate the job, but you will hate yourself for spending the money on it

I am very envious of guys who love what they do...

I don't hate what I do, but it's not awesome. I love manufacturing, but It don't love me.

I also want to clarify, I wasn't trying to brag up above about salary, I was trying to say that college and degrees can still be justified.

BoxheadTim wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Passion can be helpful. I'd be happy with strong interest in something. And then use that job to pay for a passion. It's quite possible that the passion will burn out, which leaves one a little empty.

I agree with that, you expressed it better than I did. I was trying to warn against deciding on a career only based on potential earnings - if you're thinking about doing something for a long time, you better be interested in it.

alfadriver wrote: Also, instead of having a back up, be so good that you are needed that bad.

Doesn't always work like this, unfortunately. Plus, you can be supposedly good at something you dislike, and then you get stuck with it because people don't understand why you want to move sideways/"down" on the career ladder. DAMHIKIJK, OK?

All of that is pretty good stuff, let me expand on it a bit regarding engineering.

Engineering is just about the toughest undergrad program there is(architecture and various 5-7 year medical programs are the only things that compare), nothing can prepare you for the onslaught of material you must cover, more or less continuously, for at least 4 years. You will more than likely find yourself studying what is seemingly very esoteric material, around the clock, and then go be tested on it and most of the class(who study just as much) get Cs, or worse. This is considered normal. You will not sleep on average more than 5 hours or so a night many weeks. Get ready for a lot of stimulant use, caffeine in normal doses doesn't do much for me anymore. You will not have time for much of a social life. Many friends you make early on(25-40% or so, statistically speaking) will go crazy, fail out or change majors, and you may end up being one of those unlucky people who simply can't hack it. I remember my first day, when they gathered all the STEM majors in the old ballroom and the Dean did the old "look to your left and right, one of those people, or you, won't be there in a year or two", he was not kidding.

Or at least that's my experience with the 3 years I've put in so far. Its great field to get into if it interests you, but getting there will be hell, with a high price of admission that is/has been grossly outpacing inflation, with no refunds.

College is still valuable, but you have to approach it intelligently. It is easy to lose sight of the end goal when graduation is 2, 3, or 4 years away. Have a somewhat specific idea of what you want to do, and work towards the goal through internships, student groups, and special projects along the way. These experiences are really valuable not just because you develop connections and experience, but also because they help validate your actual interest in performing the day to day task.

Florida had dirt-cheap tuition when I attended, though. I was able to pay for my part-time credit hours (between 6 and 11/semester) out of pocket. I know that for most schools, this is just not possible.

In reply to Mitchell:

It is impossible with our current understanding of space-time to work your way through school anymore. The costs are simply too high and wages too low. Somewhere in the realm of $5-10k per semester for full time tuition at a typical state school, plus books, parking etc. and then living expenses on top of that.

Have you considered the military?

If you can find a way to get to college, go. Will you qualify for any grants? Look into that. Even if you're not sure exactly "what you want to do when you grow up", that's OK. Pick a major you feel you are interested in now and see it through. Once you have your college degree, you will have numerous fields open up to you that aren't open without a college degree. Typically (not always) these are fields that have higher earning potential and more room for advancement.

I work in the insurance business. My college degree is in anthropology/human biology. I hired well over 100 people, and 98% of the college grads I hired had degrees in fields other than insurance. And in the last 60 people I hired, 0% of them didn't have a college degree at all. Now, you won't even get an interview without a degree. A lot of "white collar" jobs are that way.

You don't have to go to college if you don't want to. If you can find a field that will make you happy and provide for you and anyone else you need to provide for, then fantastic. But college will open a lot of doors for you.

Kenny_McCormic wrote: In reply to Dr. Hess: Its more than just the loans, the whole thing is a racket top to bottom.

Interesting take, I suppose, though I disagree to a large extent.

Those who are calling college loans a scam do (of course) realize that college costs didn't really begin to seriously rise until after the government began subsidizing student loans, right? RIGHT?

You can go back to school whenever you wish. If you're not ready today, don't go back until tomorrow, when you are ready. Community college is a great place to start as a come back adult student. Transfer to a larger more expensive institution when you're ready.

I do advocate doing what you enjoy. It makes no sense to me to spend a large portion of your life doing something you dislike.

If you don't have a college degree. it's worth getting one, particularly a STEM degree. Even if you don't work in the field that you got the degree in. Why? There is a long list of skills learned in college that have to do with navigating the system and performing the workload, handling the commitment, critical thinking, etc. I think these skills are at LEAST half of what the degree is about, maybe more. I think that's why most higher-paying employers require degrees. And that's the other main reason. Not saying that you CAN'T earn a great living and be wildly successful without a degree by any means, but not having one closes a LOT of doors if you plan on working for someone else.

I worked outside my degree (BS Polymer & Textile Chemistry) for over a decade and have just fallen back into chemical R&D in the last couple years. Even in those interim years doing graphic design and IT work, my training in an engineering school was at least partially responsible for my success.

The way I figure it there are two options for careers. You can do something you love and make a little less money and work a few more hours than average, but be compensated by doing what makes you happy, or you can do something you are good at and don't dislike that pays well enough and uses less time so you can pursue your passions outside work.

I now fall in that second camp, and so far, so good.