College or not

Dr. Hess wrote:

Duke wrote: Those who are calling college loans a scam do (of course) realize that college costs didn't really begin to seriously rise until after the government began subsidizing student loans, right? RIGHT?

That's why it's a scam. You are enslaving your future for basically nothing of value. Today, a 4 year degree at Bumfuq State U will cost you (or your parents) 100 large, and after interest, probably closer to a quarter mil. There are a lot of times that I think that starting undergraduate school was the largest mistake I've ever made. I should have stayed sailing. Gone into Deck, as Radio Officer'ing was ending. I think I could have pulled some strings with the union and got into unlicensed deck and worked my way up the Hawse Pipe. Oh well, at least I can treat my family, friends, dogs and cats, so it wasn't a total waste of 10 years of my life. And in another year or two, God willing, MY STUDENT LOANS WILL BE PAID OFF. YEAH!! berkeley YOU BANKING SYSTEM.

Great logic, costs only went up when the 'evil gubberment' got involved. Funny, I collage was really cheap through the 40's, 50'6 and 60's when the GI bill meant there was a 100% government subsidy for millions of students.

Also 100 large for BFU??? National average tuition for a state run four year school is $6,250. So the National average for all four years is $25k. I'm sorry but I just don't buy $75k total or nearly $19k a year for room, board, books and parking.

My eldest has just finished her first year at Wayne State Uni in Detroit, a very good school, not a UofM or an ivy league, but a well-respected school that is known through the region, not just the state and one of the best medical teaching hospitals nationally. Their figures indicate $21.5K per year for instate tuition, housing, books and others. Even that is 'only' $86k, still a long way short of your $100k. And as for a 1/4 mil including interest. WTF?? Even at 7.5% over 20 years the total cost is still less than $200k. 1/4 mil seems a touch excessive.

None of the above is to say that I think higher education is fairly priced, I don't. I see nothing to justify the fact education is going up faster than tuition, I don’t think we’re there yet, but I can see a point where we do pass the total cost to life time earnings potential if it carries on. The best rule of thumb I’ve heard for gauging borrowing for education is. “Don’t borrow more in total than your realistic first years earnings in your chosen career” That means if your likely starting salary is $35k, never borrow more than that. If you’re going to be a doctor and can start on $125k, then you can go that far etc. That way you have a chance of paying off the loan in a reasonable time and still being able to live in the meantime.

What I must have missed in other posts is some indication from the OP as to what his current job is, how old he is, what his current education level is and some broad spectrum hint as to current earnings without giving too much personal info away. Without that there is no way to assess the advisability of more education.

I had a guy work for me years ago who quit his engineering job, got his MBA from Harvard on loans, inc living expense and came out ahead three years after graduation having paid of his loans, made up for lost earnings becoming a business consultant. I also know people who have done a 4 year liberal arts degree at a private school totally funded off loans including living, books, the works. They have graduated with over $80k in loan debts and haven't had anything better than a minimum wage job in the last 3 years and will never, ever pay of the loans they stupidly took on (and were warned about in advance) Ever situation is different.

One thing. I'm an Engineer and have been in automotive my whole career going back to 1990. I'm not sure I'd do it again. I'm a car guy and I love the auto industry, but I think I'd be looking for something that can't be outsourced. I'm sure I'm safe, but I'm not sure about someone getting ready to start collage at 18. None of us have crystal balls, but where's your intended industry going and what might it look like in 2064?

Adrian's last paragraph is spot on. While in college gaining a textile-industry focused degree (which was the second largest industry in the US at the time) they signed NAFTA and the CBI. Our program's graduates went form 100% employment to oh E36 M3! I got hired but the job payed less and the industry continued to flee overseas. I'm not going to rail at the government for it, it was driven by the heads of industry who were driven by what they saw as the bottom line. Now that manufacturing is starting to reshore, it's a good time to be involved again, but taking a long thoughtful look at where technology and politics is headed is well advised. You probably can't make perfect predictions, but it never crossed my mind and i got blind sided, so any thought is better.

Also, someone mentioned looking at the area where you want to live and checking what jobs are there. That's good advice, and becomes more critical the more specialized a degree you are considering. I knew plenty of Chemical Engineers that got hired for similar jobs to mine, but not many people who were hiring a chemical engineer would consider a Textile Chemist even though we studied 90% of the same stuff. If you are undecided on a location, err on the side of more general degrees.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: My eldest has just finished her first year at Wayne State Uni in Detroit, a very good school, not a UofM or an ivy league, but a well-respected school that is known through the region, not just the state and one of the best medical teaching hospitals nationally. Their figures indicate $21.5K per year for instate tuition, housing, books and others. Even that is 'only' $86k, still a long way short of your $100k. And as for a 1/4 mil including interest. WTF?? Even at 7.5% over 20 years the total cost is still less than $200k. 1/4 mil seems a touch excessive.

Virtually nobody actually gets done in 4 years, bump it up to a more conservative 5 and there's your 100k. 7.5% sounds a bit low (on private loans anyhow) too, I think the average is closer to 10.

In reply to foxtrapper:

i'm with fox trapper, start small if you dont know what your passion is still.

i sure dont.

and a CHEAP community college course can teach you bunches about yourself with minimal risk.

PHeller wrote:

alfadriver wrote: In reply to DaveEstey: nothing wrong with the public state schools. The school I got my BS in had marketing, journalism, business, law, engineering, ag, etc etc- all of the accredited. Back in the mid 80's, my tuition went from $500 to $650 at the University of Idaho. Gotta love in-state tuition. When I went to Michigan, the $15k out of state tuition was paid for by them.

Like full-credit tuition? Take 18 credits of 4-5 classes tuition? Was only $1,114 dollars when adjusted for inflation? JEEEZ

Yes, but it was per-semester.

When I was a senior, there was almost a revolt over a $50 increase in the tuition. That was in 1989. It was awesome.

Now, thanks to cuts from the state, the tuition has gone from covering ~25% of the operating costs of the university to 75%. There's most of the increase in tuition. Why? Dunno. We keep getting hammered to invest in the future, but the state isn't willing to.

Kenny_McCormic wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote: My eldest has just finished her first year at Wayne State Uni in Detroit, a very good school, not a UofM or an ivy league, but a well-respected school that is known through the region, not just the state and one of the best medical teaching hospitals nationally. Their figures indicate $21.5K per year for instate tuition, housing, books and others. Even that is 'only' $86k, still a long way short of your $100k. And as for a 1/4 mil including interest. WTF?? Even at 7.5% over 20 years the total cost is still less than $200k. 1/4 mil seems a touch excessive.

Virtually nobody actually gets done in 4 years, bump it up to a more conservative 5 and there's your 100k. 7.5% sounds a bit low (on private loans anyhow) too, I think the average is closer to 10.

Bull. It's pretty clear that you are not a big fan of higher education, and that's fine. But there's no reason to make things up to support your opinion.

A quick google search found rates as low as 2.65% and up to 9.16% for variable student loans, a federal loans site has it from 3.4-7.9% depending on the situation (year, kind of loan), stafford loans from 3.8-5.4%. That's anywhere NEAR a 10% average loan rate. Heck, that's not even near a 7.5% average loan rate. Yes, one CAN get that high, but the highest of the high rate isn't "average".

edit- as for costs- I just looked up Idaho's fees- for an undergrad, in state tuition is $3300, out- 9800, and dorm fees are 4300/year. So in-state- that's just under $11k/year. And even for a 5 year plan, that's less than $60k.

Stop making stuff up. Look it up.

Kenny_McCormic wrote: Virtually nobody actually gets done in 4 years, bump it up to a more conservative 5 and there's your 100k. 7.5% sounds a bit low (on private loans anyhow) too, I think the average is closer to 10.

Eric re-butted the 10% so I'll step in on the no one graduates in 4 years. I may live in some microcosm populated by unicorns and fairies, but many of the children of friends are graduating in LESS THAN 4 years. I know 4 kids in the last three years who have graduated in 3 1/2 years. My daughter will take more than 4 years, but there are other things going on in life and she was working 40-50 hours a week while taking a full course load in her first year, so she could have done the same if she carried on like that.

Ninja pre-edit, so fast I didn't have to edit. Googly Moogly indicates I do live in a land of unicorns and fairy farts, it looks like it is taking 5 years for many people to graduate. Fair enough, your point. But if that's the case why? Are they taking reduced class load? If so they should have time to work and defray costs. Are they changing their mind about their major? Fair enough, that's not the schools fault. Are the school screwing them and making it impossible by screwing with class schedules or requirements? I dunno, but if that's the case bad on the schools. But the three of the four kids I mentioned above all worked while graduating in less than 4 years as well, so it's possible for motivated people.

Also I still don't buy it costs 80K for a degree. If the national average I mentioned about is less than $6.5k above per year for a state run school there's no reason for people to pay $80k for a Bachelors if they don’t' want to. Maybe yes for Engineering, pre-med or something like that but if you want a Liberal arts degree to be able to show commitment, discipline and the willingness and ability to learn so you aren't just out of the hiring process by Cat Burt the evil HR Director for not having a degree, then work part time and go to your local community college part time. There are ways and means to do this. This is what I'm trying to persuade the boyfriend of child #1 mentioned above.

In addition to wanting it to be in an industry that can not be outsourced, I would also suggest that it be in an industry with no sense of celebrity. What I mean by that are things like journalism, brewing, motorcycle tech, etc. Basically, jobs that people say, "Oh wow! That's so cool. You have like, the best job ever." That means lots of people want those jobs and you will constantly have stupid levels of competition to work really hard for low pay.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

Took me 6 years to get my B.A. I could easily have goofed off a bit less and gotten it done in potentially 5 years, but can't imagine doing it in less than that. Someone else might have been able to, but not me.

That time was taking a full load but not extra, working 2/3 time to cover all my expenses (except tuition, which my family covered), and having spare time to have a life.

Basically, you get to pick two: get through school in a reasonable time frame, get through with limited debt (without a wealthy backer), have some modicum of a life.

In reply to alfadriver:

I did

11.24% https://www.discover.com/student-loans/interest-rates.html

This article from when the fed sub rate doubled mentions "9% to 11%" for private loans. http://business.time.com/2012/03/20/students-your-loan-interest-rate-is-about-to-double/

Fine print at the bottom https://www.citizensbank.com/trufitstudentloan/

http://www.hesc.ny.gov/content.nsf/SFC/Private_Student_Loan_Comparison_Tool

Nobody gets those low rates, just like how parts stores advertise brake rotors "as low as $12"

I think I'm floating somewhere around 9% right now on my private loans.

So between 7.5 and 10, its definitely, as I said, closer to 10.

I am a big fan of higher education, just not in its current state.

Kenny_McCormic wrote: In reply to alfadriver: I did 11.24% https://www.discover.com/student-loans/interest-rates.html This article from when the fed sub rate doubled mentions "9% to 11%" for private loans. http://business.time.com/2012/03/20/students-your-loan-interest-rate-is-about-to-double/ Fine print at the bottom https://www.citizensbank.com/trufitstudentloan/ http://www.hesc.ny.gov/content.nsf/SFC/Private_Student_Loan_Comparison_Tool Nobody gets those low rates, just like how parts stores advertise brake rotors "as low as $12" I think I'm floating somewhere around 9% right now on my private loans. So between 7.5 and 10, its definitely, as I said, closer to 10. I am a big fan of higher education, just not in its current state.

Ok, so the discover link has 2.9-11.24% depending on the situation- not everyone pays 11.24, nor is the average for eveyrone 10%, it varies. A lot. Maybe an average of 7.5% at Discover. There are other choices out there....

But hey, if it supports your opinion, that's great. good for you.

not my reality, though.

Yeah, 86K (in Detroit) is nowhere NEAR 100k, and 200K is nowhere NEAR a quarter mil. There's an ENGINEER for you.

Are you more marketable with a bachelor's degree? Yeah. Is it worth a hundred large (or 200?) Doubtful. If you can get through without debt, go for it. And I certainly recommend taking absolutely everything you possibly can at the 2 year college that feeds your intended 4 year institution. They all have one. Go to the registrar of the 4 year school and ask to see the list of what courses transfer from the 2 year school and what they transfer as. Ask for a catalog for whatever degree plan you are targeting at the 4 year place. ONLY take courses at the 2 year college that directly transfer to the 4 year college and are in your degree plan. When there is not another hour you can take at the 2 year school, only then transfer to the 4 year. This is how you game this system. The first 2 years of college is High School Plus anyway.

In reply to alfadriver:

If you don't mind me asking, I see you're 47, when did you graduate?

I really hate to say it, but your "reality" sounds a lot like the generational gap that let this happen in the first place. "Things were fine when I went, it can't have gotten that much worse". Today there's more student debt than credit card debt.

I like graphs.

Duke wrote: Heh, this is a double-edged topic for me: DD#1 graduated this spring, cum laude in the honors program, with a degree in... anthropology. Although grad school is almost definitely in the works, she starts night shift at the local Amazon distribution center some time next week. That being said, Amazon will pay a decent amount of your tuition for education in particular fields where they see long-term employment prospects for people. These aren't even fields that benefit Amazon; they're just offered as a way to help you not have to work night shift at Amazon any more. I will look at that list and post what the fields are.

Is she beginning as an associate or as a manager?

My daughter took 4 years. She could have easily graduated in 3 if desired - she entered as a sophomore thanks to high school AP courses. If she had really busted hump and chosen her courses for maximum efficiency, she probably could have graduated in 5 semesters. I know very few people - some, but a vast minority - people either her age or my age who took more than 4 years to get a 4-year Bachelor's.

In reply to Mitchell:

As an associate.

Whatever gents, college is expensive and not worth going if you don't know what you want to do, and IMO even worse if you go for something that has little-to-no relation to 90% of jobs out there.

It's best summarized as, spend time learning skills. Whether at work, at home, at the local vo-tech or in college. I enjoy my job because I am constantly learning.

Most of my classes in college did not teach my the skills I use today. I wish college put more effort into finding out what someone with a Geography Degree might actually do in the working world and how they might apply their degree.

In reply to mad_machine:

What does it take to land an entry level job in your field?

alfadriver wrote: In reply to DaveEstey: nothing wrong with the public state schools. The school I got my BS in had marketing, journalism, business, law, engineering, ag, etc etc- all of the accredited. Back in the mid 80's, my tuition went from $500 to $650 at the University of Idaho. Gotta love in-state tuition. When I went to Michigan, the $15k out of state tuition was paid for by them.

For sure, but in Vermont in-state tuition is high and the schools are... meh. The private school also gave me a hell of a lot better financial package with scholarships and a few grants so I ended up spending less than the state option would have cost me.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: Ninja pre-edit, so fast I didn't have to edit. Googly Moogly indicates I do live in a land of unicorns and fairy farts, it looks like it is taking 5 years for many people to graduate. Fair enough, your point. But if that's the case why? Are they taking reduced class load? If so they should have time to work and defray costs. Are they changing their mind about their major? Fair enough, that's not the schools fault. Are the school screwing them and making it impossible by screwing with class schedules or requirements? I dunno, but if that's the case bad on the schools. But the three of the four kids I mentioned above all worked while graduating in less than 4 years as well, so it's possible for motivated people. Also I still don't buy it costs 80K for a degree. If the national average I mentioned about is less than $6.5k above per year for a state run school there's no reason for people to pay $80k for a Bachelors if they don’t' want to. Maybe yes for Engineering, pre-med or something like that but if you want a Liberal arts degree to be able to show commitment, discipline and the willingness and ability to learn so you aren't just out of the hiring process by Cat Burt the evil HR Director for not having a degree, then work part time and go to your local community college part time. There are ways and means to do this. This is what I'm trying to persuade the boyfriend of child #1 mentioned above.

College/university students have been sold a bag of goods that post secondary is about discovering "ones self" and an "experience". My girlfriend, while I love her dearly, has this attitude along with any of her friends I have met. Its not about getting a job/career after. Its about BEING at post secondary.

Makes me shake my head. And because of this, you have people with no planning/forsight who go into post secondary and switch into a different program after one year. Boom, 5 years to get a degree. I know people who come out of post secondary with double math/physics majors. Wtf good is that? Yes, it CAN be used, but I haven't met anyone yet who has put it to good use.

Kenny_McCormic wrote: If you don't mind me asking, I see you're 47, when did you graduate? I really hate to say it, but your "reality" sounds a lot like the generational gap that let this happen in the first place. "Things were fine when I went, it can't have gotten that much worse". Today there's more student debt than credit card debt.

That generation gap happened FAST. As in, it didn't even take a full generation. I am 32. My fiancee is 40. Our experience of going to college and job prospects coming out is totally different.

Dr. Hess wrote: Are you more marketable with a bachelor's degree? Yeah. Is it worth a hundred large (or 200?) Doubtful.

The timeline for an 18 year old is forty+ years. Are you really trying to argue that you're more more marketable with a (real, non- Basketweaving in the Ozarks) degree but not enough to make a $1-200k difference over that time period?

As it happens, the research as of 2011 found a lifetime earnings improvement of $550k for a bachelors only, factoring in the cost of school and the lost years of wages while attending. PewResearch study based on census data

""

OK, mfennel, I'll Call:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-17/what-san-fran-fed-did-not-tell-you-about-student-debt

and raise you:

and http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-18/net-worth-college-grads-student-debt-20-less-high-school-grads-no-debt

In reply to Datsun1500:

I personally hold several Sallie Mae variable interest private loans, they are in the 8-9% range. Same story with the roommate sitting 6 feet away.

Skipping the finger pointing and hand waving about college costs and worthless, it comes down to you. Do you want to be an engineer? A doctor? A military officer? Then you need college. Do you want to be a welder? A mechanic? A farmer? College is much less important. Going to college just to say you went is arguably rather pointless. But if you've a goal, it can serve a purpose. How long will it take? That depends on you and your major.

HiTempguy wrote: Makes me shake my head. And because of this, you have people with no planning/forsight who go into post secondary and switch into a different program after one year. Boom, 5 years to get a degree. I know people who come out of post secondary with double math/physics majors. Wtf good is that? Yes, it CAN be used, but I haven't met anyone yet who has put it to good use.

Then you haven't met anybody who got a job on Wall Street or at a non-Wall Street trading/market making firm. They love people with that degree combination.