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93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
6/19/11 8:13 p.m.

Would a sane person pay for a Mac? I was at Best Buy and looked at the specs on them. You can get twice the computer for half the price with a PC. I mean an Apple with the same specs as my HP (which I got 2 years ago for $800) is $1000. I guess they are like the Harleys of the computer world.

keethrax
keethrax HalfDork
6/19/11 8:20 p.m.

Because once upon a time there were enough things about macs that set them far enough apart to be worth a substantial price differential.

Now the relative differences are so minor that the cost premium is way out of scale with any potential benefits. Still probably worth a bit of a differential, but nothing like the current one. Inertia and marketing are wonderful things.

Apple has made a killing recycling stuff, pretending it's innovative and marketing the hell out of in the past 5-10 years. That and lawsuits are the only things they're still good at. Macs are no exception to this.

SyntheticBlinkerFluid
SyntheticBlinkerFluid HalfDork
6/19/11 8:43 p.m.

My wife wants a Mac only because I think she thinks its trendy. There is no point to purchasing one IMO. I'm happy with a PC. As long as you have a good virus and spyware program, you'll be all right.

Josh
Josh Dork
6/19/11 9:06 p.m.

You do realize this is exactly how the neighbors sound whenever anyone buys a 3-series instead of a Camry, right? Or more to the point, you can say pretty much the same thing to anyone who buys a Ducati instead of a Suzuki.

Of course, once you factor in resale, there really isn't that much price difference. I paid $1100 for my Macbook Pro 3 years ago, and I can turn around and sell it on Craigslist/Ebay for $5-600 in a heartbeat. Try that with a Windows laptop.

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
6/19/11 9:18 p.m.

Once upon a time, Apple held a distinct advantage over the PCs. Slowly that gap has narrowed till the only real difference is OC and perceived Value.

There is a reason that Toyotas and Hondas hold their value better than Hyundai.. and it has nothing to do with reliability, value, or even how good the cars look. It is all in marketing.

red5_02
red5_02 Reader
6/19/11 9:20 p.m.

I bought a gateway with specs that blow the comparable mac out of the water. If computers depreciate at 500 bucks every three years then I've got zero resale. However I also didn't spend an extra 600 bucks on a shiny apple so I don't have to go to the effort to sell it. Or I could spend a bit of cash on some new parts and my computer is good to go for another 3 years. Hmmmm

keethrax
keethrax HalfDork
6/19/11 9:23 p.m.
Josh wrote: You do realize this is exactly how the neighbors sound whenever anyone buys a 3-series instead of a Camry, right? Or more to the point, you can say pretty much the same thing to anyone who buys a Ducati instead of a Suzuki. Of course, once you factor in resale, there really isn't that much price difference. I paid $1100 for my Macbook Pro 3 years ago, and I can turn around and sell it on Craigslist/Ebay for $5-600 in a heartbeat. Try that with a Windows laptop.

Not the same at all, but nice false analogy.

The difference: They say that because they're not car people. I am a computer person.

Regaridng the resale: with the purchase price being what it is, so what? Even by your (pretty optimistic) #s, that ~50% you're out after reselling it is in the same ballpark as the 50% you could have just paid in the first place and you'd still have a computer. Financially, not a win at all.

Like this: Let's pretend your mac can be sold for your super-optimistic 50% after a few years and the pc can't be sold at all (or is sellable for such a paltry amount it's not worth the effort). You buy a mac at 1100, I buy a PC at 600 (since my 100% additional markup is a slight exaggeration, I'll shave it a bit in your favor).

time warp... and a few years have passed.

You sell it, and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in this direction too and say you get 50% (at three years. So you get $550 back. Mine has little resale value, so I don't sell it.

You're out $550, I'm out $600 but I still have a computer. Yes you can buy another one, but that just compounds the bad math.

I'm not saying don't buy one, I'm saying don't kid yourself about the costs if you do and make sure the limited differences are worth the large premium. in some cases, they very well may be worth it. Your resale example, on the other hand, is a prime case of kidding yourself to justify it.

The OS is somewhat nicer. But how much nicer is greatly exaggerated. You have to go back years before it's that much nicer, though at one point it was dramatically nicer. When that was the case, I steered more than one person towards buying a mac.

Applications are a bit of a wash depending on what you want to do, but general purpose stuff in no ways favors macs, and might favor PCs, but not by enough to really matter.

And the first person to mention anything like "easier" is going to out themselves as a marketing sucker. In general, neither option noticeably easier, and this has been the case fora long, long time. The easier one is the one you're used to.

Like I said, inertia and marketing.

stuart in mn
stuart in mn SuperDork
6/19/11 9:23 p.m.

For a minute there I thought this was the discussion about the Chevy Volt.

Zomby woof
Zomby woof SuperDork
6/19/11 9:29 p.m.

I'll tell you why I bought one.

I'm not a computer guy. I don't want to be a computer guy. I work on windows machines at work. They are all slow, and retarded. Every single one of them has problems. I had them before too, and go tired of all those same little glitches, and problems. Can they be fixed? Sure they can (although the IT guys at work can't seem to make them work). Will the problems come back? You know they will.

My Mac fires up every morning, and never gives me a single problem. No spyware, no glitches, no annoyances, and no viruses. I'm 50 years old. I have other things to do than learn how to fix a computer that will never work right.

I am my neighbour who drives an appliance, but with computers, and I'm very happy with my Mac. It was expensive, but worth every penny I paid for it. It works flawlessly every time, and to me, that's worth something.

red5_02
red5_02 Reader
6/19/11 9:32 p.m.

I don't understand how people have issues with Windows based PCs. Mine turns on every day, I go to work and it works flawlessly. I had a motherboard go bad on a dell but that's a hardware issue.

keethrax
keethrax HalfDork
6/19/11 9:38 p.m.
Zomby woof wrote: I am my neighbour who drives an appliance, but with computers, and I'm very happy with my Mac. It was worth every penny I paid for it. It works flawlessly every time.

The thing is, with very basic prevention (and I do mean very, we're talking five minutes of your time total) everything you say about your mac is true about a PC for half the cost. That's the marketing speaking. This sort of line is exactly the marketing and inertia I was talking about.

The ones at work are slow and retarded because they're work machines on a work network. A workplace full of macs is going to be very similar. I know, I've built workplaces full of either and.or both and run them for years. There are solutions to this (for either macs/pcs/or anything else) but most solutions involve more trust than a workplace is going to give their users (justified or not).

Using the workplace ones as a counterexample is like using an ex-rental fleet car as an example of why a certain car model sucks and is falling apart.

keethrax
keethrax HalfDork
6/19/11 9:42 p.m.
red5_02 wrote: I don't understand how people have issues with Windows based PCs. Mine turns on every day, I go to work and it works flawlessly. I had a motherboard go bad on a dell but that's a hardware issue.

Yep. Marketing and inertia. People are conditioned to blame every PC problem on the PC and forgive (or blame themselves) when something goes wrong on a mac.

It really is fascinating to watch. I've run large scale mixed mac and PC work environments. Pretty close to the same number of problems on either side (on a per machine basis, there wasn't a 50/50 split), but the mac mystique means the way the problems are phrased is different. And it's all conditioning.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy Dork
6/19/11 9:49 p.m.

I had to explain all of these issues to my sister the other day when she wanted to spend $2k+ on a macbook pro because "all the other nurses have them"

I told her for $1500 or less I could build her a laptop that was futureproofed for 5 years AND she wouldn't have to relearn all the stupid nonsensical differences in operating the Mac OS vs Windoze (which are a pain in the ass if you've been using a PC for over a decade and only have passing familiarity with a mac).

Mac's are a very "aesthetically pleasing" product, and while they now use components that are used to build pc's, they just seem to be put together better.

Twin_Cam
Twin_Cam SuperDork
6/19/11 9:51 p.m.

Simple. I like computers that work.

Err, work longer than a PC anyway. The pre-programmed self-destruction happens in 4 years instead of 36 hours.

Oh, and there's the virus thing. Yes yes hackers and bad people write viruses for Macs...but we all knows that's just something PC owners say to comfort themselves about having to spend $100 on antivirus software that doesn't work, there aren't actually any Mac viruses.

I should also say that I've been using Macs long before the zany multi-colored iPod commercials made them "trendy." They really are a better product. It took 2 years for something to go wrong with my first one (and that was only because I dropped a textbook on it, and the hard drive ground to a halt), whereas every PC I'd owned up until that point, it was bi-monthly trips to the repair shop.

Fairly certain this website and the magazine this website is based on is made using the help of the Apple operating system...just sayin'...

Zomby woof
Zomby woof SuperDork
6/19/11 9:54 p.m.

I didn't care one way or the other. I was not a Mac guy, nor do I buy the "mystique". It took a lot of bad experiences to make me, a cheap sumbitch, spend this kind of coin on a computer, and I don't regret it for a second.

It's funny how you talk about the phrasing, because that was the one thing that drove me nuts about the windows people. The excuses.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
6/19/11 9:55 p.m.
Twin_Cam wrote: Simple. I like computers that work. Err, work longer than a PC anyway. The pre-programmed self-destruction happens in 4 years instead of 36 hours. Oh, and there's the virus thing. Yes yes hackers and bad people write viruses for Macs...but we all knows that's just something PC owners say to comfort themselves about having to spend $100 on antivirus software that doesn't work, there aren't actually any Mac viruses. Also, IBTL.

I have only ever had one virus on a PC computer in 6 years on owning one. I don't know what everyone is complaining about with PCs having issues. I don't have any problem with them running 2-3 years without problems by which time there are much more powerful computers on the market for not too much money and it is time to upgrade.

keethrax
keethrax HalfDork
6/19/11 9:55 p.m.
Zomby woof wrote: You're not fooling anybody.

Fooling? Buy PC, download and install either an antivirus and an spyware scanner separately, or one of the better suites if you want a single package (better = not named Norton for starters). Plenty of free options out there, plenty of cheap ones too. Set them to auto-update. Poof! Done. 5 minutes on a modern network connection, more if you're still on dial up. I'd recommend grabbing firefox while you're at it, but will be the first to admit I haven't made enough use of any recent version of IE and so it may just be personal preference talking on that one by now (a few versions ago it wasn't, but I really have no idea now).

That right. Facts are scary. And the admitted non-computer person really knows all about them, and someone who has spent close to two decades working on both is just imagining how it all really works and the costs involved.

I will admit that at the very highest end, the prices do get closer. Not the same, but closer. That being said... I wouldn't suggest your average user buy either a mac or a PC from those ones, they;re on the wrong side of the value for money equation at that end whether it's a mac or a pc.

Anecdotal "I bought a mac and it never broke" aren't valuable data points. Anyone who can tie their own shoes and dress themselves should be able to say the same thing about a PC. I'm pretty sure you qualify as one of those people, so you'd likely not have had any problems either way.

Again, I'm not saying don't buy a mac. But don't kid yourself about what you're getting for your money either.

Zomby woof
Zomby woof SuperDork
6/19/11 10:00 p.m.

That wasn't aimed at you. Your post just got in before mine. Nonetheless, I don't believe that it's that simple to keep one working, even marginally.

keethrax
keethrax HalfDork
6/19/11 10:01 p.m.
Twin_Cam wrote: Oh, and there's the virus thing. Yes yes hackers and bad people write viruses for Macs...but we all knows that's just something PC owners say to comfort themselves about having to spend $100 on antivirus software that doesn't work, there aren't actually any Mac viruses.

Try spending 5 minutes and $0. It really is that easy and cheap. The rest is marketing and or ignorance talking.

I should also say that I've been using Macs long before the zany multi-colored iPod commercials made them "trendy." They really are a better product. It took 2 years for something to go wrong with my first one (and that was only because I dropped a textbook on it, and the hard drive ground to a halt), whereas every PC I'd owned up until that point, it was bi-monthly trips to the repair shop.

And now your illustrating the inertia side. Back before the make colorful/trendy/etc bit really took off, the differences were much larger. That was back when I often advised people to buy macs.

Fairly certain this website and the magazine this website is based on is made using the help of the Apple operating system...just sayin'...

So? Find where I said they don't work. In fact, I said they both work. Better yet, look back to where I said for certain types of applications the differences are more pronounced... Guess what one of those is? For some of the work they do, I'd buy a mac if it were me doing it.

Twin_Cam
Twin_Cam SuperDork
6/19/11 10:10 p.m.

So how long do you think the mods are going to let this thread go?

keethrax
keethrax HalfDork
6/19/11 10:11 p.m.
Zomby woof wrote: That wasn't aimed at you. Your post just got in before mine. Nonetheless, I don't believe that it's that simple to keep one working, even marginally.

For a home computer, it really is that easy. And for a work computer, it really isn't that easy for either macs or PCs. Comparing the two environments really is apples to oranges. Both are easy at home, both are hard in an average workplace. The Mac is slightly easier at home, but I'm serious when I say 5 minutes and $0 (again, add a bit of time if you're on dialup)

I clean viruses off of people computers as a side job. So I'm not about to tell you they don't happen. But they happen under a very limited set of circumstances that are so easy to avoid that they should never happen. They happen when you combine:

-Poor virus scanning (which is free at takes all of five minutes to setup)

-downloading infected and obviously illegally stolen software and/or porn.

Remove the cases where both of those apply, and you cut the numbers to so close to zero it's not even funny.

keethrax
keethrax HalfDork
6/19/11 10:17 p.m.
Zomby woof wrote: I didn't care one way or the other. I was not a Mac guy, nor do I buy the "mystique". It took a lot of bad experiences to make me, a cheap sumbitch, spend this kind of coin on a computer, and I don't regret it for a second. It's funny how you talk about the phrasing, because that was the one thing that drove me nuts about the windows people. The excuses.

It usually went like this:

PC user: "Argh my damn PC did XYZ again! Stupid berkeleying PCs"

mac user with the exact same problem: "I must have screwed it up, I'm sorry"

Because they're both conditioned to believe that PCs break all the time (untrue) and that Macs don't (just as untrue)

Salanis
Salanis SuperDork
6/19/11 10:17 p.m.
Zomby woof wrote: I work on windows machines at work. They are all slow, and retarded. Every single one of them has problems.

Key words there. At the school where I was working last it was all Mac's. Guess what... they had lots of issues. Any time you try to get a bunch of computers to network boot, they're going to have problems, and it only takes one nimrod to hose the entire system. Actually, my employer before that was a larger network of almost all PCs (except the graphics department, they were on Macs). Little to no issues thanks to a knowledgeable dedicated IT department.

That said, I've had pretty much the same frequency of issues on Macs as on PCs. Difference is, I've never had a problem on a PC that I, or a knowledgeable friend couldn't fix pretty easily. I have had Macs work themselves into corners that were way too difficult to work out of. Other difference is, there is so much illusion around Macs of their perfection, that there is not knowledge database or obvious work arounds when something bad inevitable happens.

My classic example was when I inserted a CD into a Mac and it decided it wasn't there. Not that the CD was blank, but that it did not register any disk at all. Look at a Mac. Tell me how you will open/eject the cd tray if it is empty. Drag to garbage? Nope. No icon. "Eject Disk" under top menu? Nope. Not an option unless it knows there's a disk in there. Insert a paper clip into the emergency eject hole? Nope. Apple decided that emergency eject hole is unnecessary.

keethrax
keethrax HalfDork
6/19/11 10:20 p.m.
Salanis wrote:
Zomby woof wrote: I work on windows machines at work. They are all slow, and retarded. Every single one of them has problems.
Key words there. At the school where I was working last it was all Mac's. Guess what... they had lots of issues. Any time you try to get a bunch of computers to network boot, they're going to have problems, and it only takes one nimrod to hose the entire system.

Exactly. The difference is in the workplace vs home, and not in the mac vs pc.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
6/19/11 10:23 p.m.
Twin_Cam wrote: Oh, and there's the virus thing. Yes yes hackers and bad people write viruses for Macs...but we all knows that's just something PC owners say to comfort themselves about having to spend $100 on antivirus software that doesn't work, there aren't actually any Mac viruses.

People spend money on antivirus software? There are several really good ones for free.

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