Diesel questions.

Everyone has a favorite but I'm doing research. I lean toward Dodges.

I'm looking at F-250 to 350s, 3/4 or one ton pickups. Dually not necessary, just something with decent towing capacity. Towing a large boat, I could go for a van but trucks are nice to have around.

Ford, Chevy, Dodge. Who is the most reliable, who has the best parts availability, ride quality etc. For some reason I have a soft spot (in my head) for those Mitsu-Fiso cab over turbo diesels.

If you've got an opinion and can back it with facts, not flames I'd like to hear them.

Thanks, Dan

This has been hashed over dozens of times, but basically this is how it breaks down:

The Dodge with the Cummins is the best one around with a built automatic transmission or a 5 speed, as long as you don't have rust issues, seat issues, and have about $500 to rebuild the front suspension on the 4x4 models. The 5.9 Cummins is a medium duty engine in a light duty chassis, so they will run quite literally forever. The problem is it is a million mile motor in a 100,000 mile chassis. I am partial to the 12 valve Cummins engines for their simplicity, reliability, and economy, but the later 24 valve versions can run just as well but are a bit more finicky. Service parts for the Dodges are cheap. The trucks have been around long enough that all the wear items are available, engine parts from Cummins are reasonable, and its not too often anything will need replacing. In 247k miles, the only engine parts I have replaced have been the starter, filters and a low pressure lift pump.

The Chevy can be had in two distinct flavors. The 6.5 trucks up to model year 2000 and the Duramax trucks after that. The 6.5s are a great motor if you get a good one that hasnt been railed on and don't plan on pulling the world. They are based off the older 6.2 Detroit engines, but with increased displacement and a turbocharger. They have a few issues with the electronic injector pumps, mainly centered around the Pump Mounted Driver (PMD) overheating. You can relocate the PMD off the engine and this greatly increases reliability. Parts and service on a 6.5 are at least as easy as Cummins, but as the 6.5 is a light duty diesel with indirect injection, it will never yank the way a Cummins does. The Duramax is a great engine, quiet and smooth and tons of power. The early ones had injector problems, but most have been fixed under warranty. I had one as a work truck, and it was very nice. I did not drive it enough to have any issues.
Chevys have a great style, low step-in height, good resale, and ride like a car with the IFS in front.

The Fords are really a mixed bag. The early Powerstrokes, 94-98, are awesome but down on power compared to the later ones as they do not have intercoolers. The later ones are good motors also, but seem to have more issues than the Chevy or Cummins offerings. These are complicated engines with the HUEI injection system. Lots of expensive parts to fail on them. I wouldnt touch a 6.0 Powerstroke. Nothing but trouble. A coworker of mine has had 3 of the 6.0 liter trucks. One he rolled (not the trucks fault), next one started using coolant. Tore it down, had 7 cracked pistons and both heads were damaged also. $5500 later he was back on the road. His wife's truck has been in the shop constantly for drivability issues. Service parts are not cheap for Powerstroke engines, and most of the service has to be done with the cab off the vehicle.

After owning or having as a work truck a 1996 12 valve Cummins, 97 Powerstroke Ford, 2000 K3500 with the 6.5, and a 2001 Duramax, my pick would be the Cummins if on a budget, and the Duramax if I had Duramax Money to spend.

I do not have anything concrete on the Dodges, only that when I was shopping they felt flimsy and cheap and I dismissed them outright based on interior quality alone.

I drove a friend's F-250 with the 7.3L because that was what everyone told me I needed but it was loud, smelly and the ride was very harsh. I know - its a serious truck - but if I'm going to ask my wife to go on an 800 mile camping trip she needs to be able to keep her fillings in tact or its going to be a looong vacation for me. To be fair my friend loves it, its reliable and it does everything he wants - it was just too unfriendly for my needs.

I bought an '04 Chevy/Duramax. It has a very comfortable ride compared to the Ford and it was really (for a diesel) quiet, smooth and had gobs more power than the older F series. It also has a 5 speed trans that makes towing nice and it gets 18 city, 23 hwy and 16 or so pulling my enclosed trailer. I have heard people say its not as good a "truck" as the Ford but I'd dispute that based on having pulled a 9k trailer up/down Watkins Glen with 3 engines, two diffs and a transmission in the bed. It shrugs off that kind of load without so much as a hint of working hard so Its more than I need anyway. It actually improves the highway ride to have a ton or so in the bed.

I just did the "every 25k" service and put new dampers all around on it... other than the cost of the special synthetic transmission fluid it was not expensive and I found it to be pretty easy to reach everything. It won't be a huge effort to do repair work from what I can see. I wouldn't want to have to try to lift the trans though - its freaking HUGE.

I've only driven it 9k miles since I bought it but I'm very happy with it so far - it exceeded my expectations and I use it more and more as a family car because its also a comfortable cruiser. Based on the service life of these things - if it does not rust or get wrecked it will be the last truck I buy. It will take me 15 - 20yrs to go 500k miles.

I'm not really sure if this is helpful at all... since you are considering a cab-over box truck but - there it be nonetheless.

New or used?

93gsxturbo did a pretty good summary. We just disagree.

First off, I'll agree with him on the Chevy. But I need to add, there is a third Chevy variety, the 6.2L. Piece of junk. Stay away. I would also add that, while I love the ride of the Duramax, I can't afford one. They are pricey.

93's love of the Cummins may have something to do with the fact that he has one. My appreciation of the Ford is probably that I have one. But I'll see his 247K miles and up it to 400k miles.

I'll also agree with most of his assessment of the Cummins. Million mile motor in a 100,000 mile chassis about sums it up. That, and the crappy transmissions Dodge has always had a love for. I also disagree on the price of parts and service- in my region (the southeast) they are a LOT more than the Fords.

The snorklewhacker is right on the noise and the smell. But the Cummins is louder than the Ford. It's a 6 cyl, and the pistons are like paint cans. They REALLY roar when they get spinning.

The Powerstroke has been around forever, and there are a lot of them on the market. Pricetag is a lot lower than the Dodge. Aftermarket support is great.

Complete agreement on the 6.0L. It's worth avoiding.

But I would also not pursue a non-intercooled 7.3L. There's just no point. These trucks are outdated and cheap. You can pick up a good one for $2500- 3500. But honestly, if you are in that price range, you probably won't be able to enjoy the major benefits of a diesel. A $2500 buyer isn't planning on driving his purchase for 300,000 miles.

Decent 7.3L intercooled Powerstrokes can be purchased in a lot of price ranges.

Re-reading your question, we missed a couple of points.

Ride quality: I'd give the nod to the Chevy. They are soft, smooth, and low- good highway riders.

Fords and Dodges are both pretty harsh, but tough. That's the way (uh huh, uh huh) I like it.

Reliability: No to the 6.2L, and the 6.0L. Yes to the Cummins, no to the Dodge chassis/ trans. Duramax- Yes. Built by International. Should go forever. Yes to the 6.5L (probably the cheapest to maintain, but the least powerful). Ford: a bit mixed bag. If you can find a well maintained one which is approaching 200k, you'll get a good deal on it. Owner may sell just because they are afraid of the mileage.

Towing: Don't buy a dually. You don't need it, and you won't like it. I'd also avoid the F-350. Your towing needs will rule out the 6.2L, and probably the 6.5L. Also will stretch the non-intercooled 7.3L. The Powerstroke, the Cummins, and the Duramax can all handle your towing load well.

The Duramax is built by Isuzu, not International. The 7.3 IDI, 7.3 Powerstroke, and 6.0 Powerstroke engines were built by Navistar AKA International. Some of the latest 6.5 Chevy engines also had blocks cast in the Navistar foundry and are prized for their high Nickel content.

Actually, the 6.2 and 6.5 Detroit (AKA Chevy) engines are some of the most reliable diesels on the planet and are found under the hoods of millions of military trucks and Humvees. My experience with 6.2 and 6.5 engines has been excellent. Please keep in mind that these engines are in a completely different class than modern engines such as the Dodge Cummins, Ford Powerstroke, or Chevy Duramax, and therefore direct comparisons are difficult and the ball will always swing to the modern engine. But if you want to buy a $1500 truck that will run well for a very long time, you can't go wrong with a 6.2 or 6.5. Lots of people confuse the 6.2 and 6.5 with the Oldsmobile 5.7 Diesel used in GM mid and full size cars and some light duty trucks. This is where the bad reputation comes from. In reality, the engines do not share any parts and the 6.2 and 6.5 was designed from the ground up as a light duty diesel for pickup truck use by Detroit Diesel.

The stock Dodge automatic is not the best, but fortunately they have been around so long and guys are laying down such big numbers that all the tricks are known and fully built 100% billet transmissions are cheap. My Dodge has a billet triple disk torque converter, retooled valve body, billet apply levers and servos, heavy bands, and a shift kit. It is excellent. Hard, fast, consistent shifts at any throttle, and it was $1500 for all of it. The Dodge and Chevy manual transmissions are exactly the same NV4500, save the input shaft and output shaft.

The new ('11) Fords, while pricy, are making a pretty strong argument for themselves. The fuel economy is going to be pretty decent. Especially considering the 6.7 Cummins and the regeneration fuel use. Ford has done LOTS of work to get past the whole 6.0 FUBAR, and the new diesel is going to be a dandy. Ford's making this one BTW, in Mexico. Navistar is out of the picture. The 6.0 screwed them pretty hard.

BUT...the front end on the Ford is STILL the Twin I-Beam ( 2WD) and it STILL rides very rough unloaded. Not bad loaded, but empty...no, thanks. BTDT, GTTS. And they get a nasty shimmy as the suspensions age. Bad ju-ju.

The GM offerings are worth a look, if you can get past the whole gubmint bailout deal. My wife's having a hard time with that, which is bad, because they ride and drive decently well empty. We need a decent ride, and we don't have it right now with the big van. But the Duramax is a decent one, and worth a look. Isuzu (not IHC) makes them and they'll get decent miles between rebuilds, about 300-500K.

Dodge has the same bailout onus, but the 2WD is decent riding, if you can find one. And the MegaCab...man, can you say 'OoooH yeah...LOTS of room!' ? But there's a cheap, cheesy feel to them unless you go for the top end seating/interior.

I'm waiting for Ford to get the v-6 version of the new diesel, in the 1/2 ton. I'd buy the SuperCrew, in a heartbeat. But that's just me...

Good luck, whatever you decide. May the Schwarz be with you.

Mikey52_1 wrote: I'm waiting for Ford to get the v-6 version of the new diesel, in the 1/2 ton.

the rumors have been around from about 99 up.. I've been waiting forever as well. The 1st company to build a smaller truck with a diesel will get my money.

The 4.5 v6 powerstroke is actually being built and used in ford COE trucks. It is a NVH nightmare.

as to dan's question..

everyone has covered the basics except...

Do not under any circumstances purchase a diesel truck that has been modded and beat on. If the guy starts talking about boxes and stacking them...

Buy the best truck you can afford with a good service history. That's the important bit as repairs are freaking expensive.

ignorant wrote:

Mikey52_1 wrote: I'm waiting for Ford to get the v-6 version of the new diesel, in the 1/2 ton.

the rumors have been around from about 99 up.. I've been waiting forever as well. The 1st company to build a smaller truck with a diesel will get my money. The 4.5 v6 powerstroke is actually being built and used in ford COE trucks. It is a NVH nightmare.

I've had my name on the 'notify me' list for the Mahindra quad cab pickup...I'd love to try them, if ever they show up.

I heard GM made some diesel full-size cars in the 80's.......

DrBoost wrote: I heard GM made some diesel full-size cars in the 80's.......

actually something funny..

One of my old high school friends had one. I never saw it move though...

My uncles diesel Cutlass ran great, after he put the 403 in it.

my dads 99 f250 just eclipsed 450k on a stock engine/turbo/trans/rearend

its a marvelous truck. never been towed, etc.

i want to put a cummins in place of my 6.0 '05 f350 engine though . when it busts hard, its getting a swap.

I would completely agree with buy the best truck you can afford that has a good history. My dad has a f250 with the 7.3 and when chipped its a joy to drive. and you will end of cruising at 85 with out even knowing it. it has had some gremlins, but that being said my next truck will have that motor in.

I just inherited (last night actually) the family suburban that my grandfather had built to his specs in 86. it has the 6.2. it only has 75k on it. its only ever been a tow vehicle. I put 430miles on it last night and it had no problems keeping up with semis with the back end loaded full of random junk. i managed jsut a tic of 14mpg with the cruise on most of the time. i was def impressed with it.

just my experience. enjoy the land of no spark plugs!

monsterbronco wrote: I would completely agree with buy the best truck you can afford that has a good history.

Plus infinity... even if you have to pay a little more for it, lest you end up with a kludge like I did. That said, my '95/96 Dodge runs and drives fine. It's main downfall (for me) is it's not a van.

I would not do a Cummins/Ford conversion unless you really have money to burn. Yes, I know it can be done and I drool over the converted trucks in magazines too, but you won't really gain anything over the Ford motor other than internet bragging rights: "Oooo... look at how much money I spent installing an engine into a truck that wasn't designed for it!"

ignorant wrote:

DrBoost wrote: I heard GM made some diesel full-size cars in the 80's.......

actually something funny.. One of my old high school friends had one. I never saw it move though...

My in-laws put about 300K on a Pontiac (Impala clone...can't think of the name. Parisienne?) with the Olds 5.7 diesel. Treated them well, but it had a peculiar affinity for deer...Finally fixed it enough that the last thing to change was the radiator cap, (everything on it was worn beyond even good 'core' status) then drove it out back and abandoned it to the elements. There it sits still, with its' decent sheetmetal from the last deer boo-boo, and 2 good uncracked windows. Just rusting into oblivion as ranch yard art. I think it could still be started and driven into the scrap dealer, but they won't...they might 'need it' one day. A spare scrap car, I guess. Ah well...

Slight threadjack: Would these old 5.7L cars that are basically free because of a reputation for requiring a calendar to predict acceleration... would they be just fine if some enterprising individual were to slap a turbo on there or do they suck for more reasons that just that?

If an individual threw a turbo in there, chances are it wouldn't make it to the end of the driveway. The engines really aren't that strong.

IIRC you can throw in a 6.2 and stick a turbo on there, though.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Slight threadjack: Would these old 5.7L cars that are basically free because of a reputation for requiring a calendar to predict acceleration... would they be just fine if some enterprising individual were to slap a turbo on there or do they suck for more reasons that just that?

Yeah, the blocks are nothing special. Heavier than the gas version, but only a bit. The webbing between cylinders has windows cast in for internal air flow. The heads are okay, but they would only take maybe 5# of boost before the gaskets blew.

I think the main reason they suck somewhat is that they're in a heavy vehicle with less than auspicious gearing. The trannies are calibrated for leisurely driving. They (GM) just never got past the various decisions that led them to try turning a decent gas engine into a goofball diesel. Trying to raise the CAFE thru inefficiency, that sort of thing. Thus they end up 20-odd years later broke and needing a bailout to continue 'business'.

I owned a 99 Ford 3/4 ton 4wd with the 7.3 and a 95 Dodge 2wd dually with the Cummins. I kept the Dodge. The Ford was a great truck and a nicer truck than the Dodge. Interior was better etc, but the cummins is a hell of an engine and after towing heavy with both I prefered the stability of the dually. They were close enough though that if the Ford had been a dually I, more than likely, would have kept it. Also it's worth mentioning that my Dodge has a built auto transmission. Another thing worth mentioning is the cummins is much easier to work on.....a lot of room under the hood unlike the Ford.

6 in a row if you wanna tow!

Had a V8 but it wasn't that great.

I had a 5.9 Cummins in my Motorhome (with the Alison 6 speed auto transmission). Dead nuts reliable. (it took 4 gallons of oil though, not sure what the oil capacity is in the Trucks)

The motor home was 13,000 GVW and we towed a 3,000 lb jeep (loaded the Jeep up so more like 4,000 lbs)

Though the steepest grades (7 % -10%) we would only go 25-35 mph, it did everything we asked it to do.

When / if I get a tow vehicle (not sure if I need one) it will have the Cummins B5.9 Turbo.

93gsxturbo wrote: 6 in a row if you wanna tow! Had a V8 but it wasn't that great.

makes me wonder how Navistar would do selling a 1-ton size truck (maybe 1.25T), with the new small (7 ltr) inline 6 they have. That thing has some some beauty torque curves!